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Full transcript (unedited)
Dan Munro 0:00
So most nice guys don’t ruin their marriages by being selfish. They actually ruin them by being helpful. I know this because I’ve done this right after my daughter was born, my wife was suffering a lot physically, and I relapsed really hard into being a fixer, and this created a massive disconnect between us. While I thought I was helping, I was actually controlling. I was trying to prevent her from having emotions that I found uncomfortable, and that made me build up a lot of resentment, too. If you’ve ever walked into your house and felt like you’re having problems dumped on you the minute you walk through the door, that your help is not being appreciated, that the intimacy and your sex life has faded, and you don’t know why this happened or when it started, this interview with relationship coach and intimacy expert Monica Tanner is going to help you sort that out together. We’re going to break down something that men completely misunderstand, the difference between fixing and supporting. We’re going to have a look at why resentment builds and how it destroys marriages and relationships, especially for people pleasers, and we’re going to explore how this creates an environment that is not emotionally safe and that that is the leading cause for intimacy and connection problems later down the line, Monica is going to help us unpack the chain reaction, how fixing leads to expectations, that leads to resentment, that leads to intimacy issues, and what you can do to break out of the cycle. So get a pen and paper ready, because this episode is absolutely packed for practical tips from someone who really knows what they’re talking about. So let’s meet Monica and see what she has to say. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming, and let’s assume that my audience doesn’t know you yet. So maybe you could start with just a little intro about what it is you do and how it is you came to this kind of work.
Monica Tanner 1:53
Yeah, well, I mean, I grew up in the era of Disney movies and happily ever after, so as a kid, I used to think that marriage was the end, all be all and what could possibly go wrong. And when I turned 12 years old, my parents sat me down and let us know that they were getting a divorce. And I remember thinking, Wait a second, we don’t ever see this part like this isn’t how it’s supposed to go. And so at a very young age, I just became obsessed with other people’s marriages and relationships. I used to really study what was going on, and I was pretty discouraged, because most people around me seemed to not be really happy. They didn’t seem like they were having a lot of fun in their marriage. And so I kind of made it my mission in life to figure out how to make marriage more fun and lasting. And so I studied it in college. I met my prince charming. Right after college, we got married and started a family, and I remember thinking, why is this so difficult? I know what I’m supposed to be doing. I’ve studied this, but we still had to learn a lot of really difficult lessons, and so we had we continued to start a business together. We had four children, and then when my youngest was old enough to start kindergarten, I started my own business as a coach. And so that’s what brings me here. I am just bound and determined to help other couples write their happily ever after love story.
Dan Munro 3:21
Nice. Yeah, my favorite type of coaches are the ones who are trying to solve the thing they had to go through, you know, rather than that thing that they’ve never experienced. And it just gives it that personal empathy that you’ve experienced, that, you know, the pain. And of course, you’ve got like, this thing where you’re studying it since you’re a kid, it’s like this advantage, Head Start, cool. Well, I’ve got, I’ve got a lot of questions about kind of advice you’re going to have for my guys, but I also want to hear it from your point of view as to how it’s applied to your own marriage. And you can be as transparent as you feel like being, you know, I’m not going to push you for information, but the first thing that stood out to me, and I know this kind of diving straight in, but having kids, because that’s the most recent event in my particular marriage, you could say. And the effect was much greater than I thought it was going to be. Tell me a little bit about your insights from your own marriage and what you observe with your clients about the impact that having kids has. And yeah, the kind of problems that might arise.
Monica T 4:35
Yeah. I mean, having children is a huge transition. I mean, especially for the female who’s burying children, as you see, for nine months, her body changes and prepares itself to, you know, give birth and nurture a child, and then immediately it changes again, and you’ve got massive hormones running through your body. Right? And your entire like, role and purpose in life changes really, really, really fast, and most people are not ready for that. I used to laugh, because the one thing you know, people have all kinds of advice, and they’ll, you know, try to prepare you as much as they can for, you know, childbirth, but nobody tells you how painful like nursing a baby afterwards is. And I’m like, why did why didn’t anyone tell me about this? And then I realized, I think if people told you what it was like to try to recover from childbirth and nurse a baby and be responsible for this brand new life, people wouldn’t do it. It’s like, kind of scary and daunting, right? And so they have to just, you have to just kind of be thrown into it and figure out as you go. And most people do figure it out, but, you know, we’re not prepared for it. And so I would say, be patient with each other. Ask a lot of questions, how can I make your life easier on you? And it’s kind of your first into really becoming a good team, because one of you has to be on at all times, and it’s not really fair if the mom is responsible for literally everything around the baby, like, it works better if you are co parenting together, and like, really working together as a team, and you’re really tuned in to what each other is going through. And so I feel like having a baby is pivotal to really creating the type of intimacy and teamwork that’s necessary for all the other parts of creating your happily ever after. Yeah, this
Dan Munro 6:44
segues pretty nicely, because this is this transition into the kind of teamwork model is actually a really high risk place for the kind of guys listening to this, because I, myself, I had a massive relapse into people pleasing after my wife gave birth, partly because the nursing was so horrific. Yeah, that’s deep seated urge that I’ve had since childhood to fix especially emotion was provoked so strongly that I slipped back into the sort of fixing, controlling space so my guys destroy their marriages with what are your observations around this, in terms of especially people, please, type guys getting to that fixed and controlling space, and the kind of things that trigger that off?
Monica T 7:37
Yeah, your question, in and of itself, is very insightful. Because, yes, the difference between being really successful outside of the home and being really successful inside of the home, and this is what I work with really, really high powered, successful men, and they can’t figure out why they get everything they want, like they get paid lots and lots of money to fix things and create systems and solve problems and make everybody happy outside of the home. And then they get home and they’re like, why does this not work here? And the reason why is because home life cannot be fixed, like there’s not a lot to solve when it comes to hanging out with kids and, you know, helping your your wife raise a baby like there’s nothing really to be solved around breastfeeding. I mean, it just is what it is. And your job as as a loving, supportive partner, especially if your wife is breastfeeding. I mean, you know, if you’re if you’re doing the bottle thing, it’s a little different. You can take turns. You can be more helpful, right? But as far as breastfeeding, your job is to just be present. Your wife might be breastfeeding the baby and curling her toes into the carpet and in so much pain and actually, like, cursing the whole process, and there’s nothing you can do to fix that, honestly. I mean, YouTube and Google. Like, how do I make this less painful? You know, you can, like, look up all the natural remedies and just be there. But really, what your what your spouse really needs in that moment is someone to just be there, like, Hey, honey, I love you so much. You’re doing such a great job. Like I am here with you. I know that this is difficult, but it’s not going to last forever. It’s the same mindset as when you have a whole bunch of little kids running around destroying your house, and in your mind, you’re like, how do I solve this? How do I fix this? How do I make this more efficient? And the answer is, you just you’re just there. You’re just there with your partner, the two of you in the middle of the chaos, and you’re looking at each other like, Hey, listen, this is hard, but it’s not. Going to last forever. I’m here with you. I’m your teammate. Like, let me know if you need a break. Like, that’s really all you can do. There’s no making it more efficient. There’s no solving the problem. It’s really just being present in the moment with your partner and being a supportive spouse. Yes, that’s hard for a fixer.
Dan Munro 10:25
Well, this is, this is what I think we need to unpack a little bit, because that sounds so simple and straightforward on the surface and yet so difficult to apply in real life when you’re in an emotional situation. So that’s what I really want to hear, sort of unpack with you. Call it the difference between, say, fixing and supporting. I’d say when it comes to like a husband with nice guy syndrome, a people pleaser, that’s the thing, they struggle to differentiate the most. They don’t really know what we mean when we say support, because them fixing is the only tool they’ve got on their kit, and it’s all about getting the emotions back to a range that they’re comfortable with. Yeah, yep. What are your thoughts around this difference here?
Monica T 11:17
This is really interesting, because whenever I post about this, and I’ll I’ll tell you, I’ll give you a story to illustrate it. But I always get men that are like, this makes no sense, and I’m like, okay, but here’s the story, right? When you are a fixer, you you want to solve all the problems, and here is the problem with that. Let’s say your wife has a really hard day, and maybe she got into a confrontational moment with a neighbor. And you you come home from work or from running errands or whatever you’re doing, and she has this story to tell you that like, oh, the neighbor is so annoying. They totally, you know, I don’t know, mowed their they were mowing the lawn while my baby was asleep. And I texted him and said, hey, the baby is sleeping. Is there any way you can not do this right now? And then they attacked me, and they’re telling you this story, and in your mind, you’re like, Oh, here’s what you should do, because you want to fix it. You want to help them. You want to solve the problem for them. And really, what your spouse needed was just a sounding board, an opportunity to talk it out, because the reality is is she’s super, super capable of solving the problem herself. She just wanted your support and encouragement, not your solutions. This is the same it goes for kids. When your kids are old enough to start having problems, you can either jump in and solve all their problems immediately, right? And then what are you teaching them? Versus saying, Man, honey, that is, that sounds so hard like but I’m certain you’ll, you’ll know what to do. And then you allow that you’re doing several things by doing this. One, you’re showing them that you have faith in them, that they can you know that they can solve the problem on their own. You’re empowering them to solve the problem on their own. And you’re also saying, I believe in you and I support you. I’m right here. If you need something, if you need backup or help or someone to be on your team. I’m your guy, but I know you’re gonna figure this out, right? You’re, you’re like, showing them that you have faith in them, that you like what I tell these really smart guys, because they’re like, what I just as soon as she started talking, I knew exactly what she should do, what you’re basically when you solve the problem you’re saying. I don’t really believe that you can do this on your own, like, I’ll, don’t worry, I’ll fix the problem, right? But what you’re basically doing when you don’t solve the problem for them, is you’re saying, I’m a smart guy, like, I’m pretty amazing myself, and I married a really intelligent, capable woman, and so I know that they can handle this, right? I’m just here to support, like, be on your side, ask questions, maybe, right? Like, like, what was that? Like? Let’s tell me what she said. Oh, my goodness. And then, what did you do? And how do you feel about that? And what do you think you should do? Now, that’s a real that’s a supportive conversation. That’s also saying, Hey, listen, I’m here with you. I’m totally on your side. I know you’re going to figure out the right thing to do. So that’s helpful. When you’re talking to your partner, you’re talking to your kids. When you’re talking to you know, the kid down the street, you want to empower them to solve your own problems. So. Even though you’re like, I know exactly what I should be doing, what you should be doing, you want to give your the people in your life that you love, the encouragement and empowerment to handle things on their own. Otherwise, how do they learn?
Dan Munro 15:14
This is where it gets really interesting for me, because I think a lot of them will say that they understand that as as a concept. And then if you go watch them in their marriage, there’s zero application of it. Now there’s a couple of things that stood out for me that I’m keen to hear your thoughts on. One is this idea of sort of being backing up your partner rather than doing it for them. A lot of the complaints that I hear from the partners is that they don’t feel supported and backed up. They don’t. They’ll literally say, you don’t have my back. And the other guy’s trying to fix things all the time, and he feels that this is a really unfair kind of accusation. And what I’ve observed is what she means is the few things she actually does want him to do he backs out on, like something confrontational, for example, but all the stuff that she just wants support with that she could do on her own, he jumps in and smothers her and does that for her. So he thinks he’s got her back all the time, because he’s literally hovering over her, doing everything for her, but actually, the very few things that she really needs him to step up on, he bows out. There’s a kind of coward. What’s been your observation in that kind of space?
Monica T 16:24
Well, I think I would help the men that you work with understand that if they have any question or doubt of what their wife is looking for, that they just ask, Would you like me to support you? How would you like me to support you? Would you like me just to listen and, you know, be curious and supportive, or do you want me to help you problem solve? Like, what would you like me to do? What would be the most supportive way for me to show up right now for you, that’s and let her answer you. She might say, you know, what, if you could go next door and, like, get upset with Bob and whatever for mowing the lawn, that’d be amazing. Then you know exactly what she wants you to do. You might say, Oh, are we sure that’s how we want to handle this? Maybe we should, you know, talk it out a little bit longer. Or you might say, All right, I’m your dude. Either way you’re saying, I love you. I’m on your team. Let’s either figure out together what the best way to handle this would be, or let me just back you up in whatever you decide. But if you’re in doubt, just ask, what is it that you’re looking for right now? From me,
Dan Munro 17:40
now, I can hear their objections coming up, whether they’re delusional or real. Yeah, there’s kind of, especially the guys who have established a long term codependent pattern with their partner, where they’ve been fixing so long that she’s actually come to see this as the dynamic, and perhaps even enjoys it, or has at least become accustomed to it. There’s a lot of guys who think, and they might be wrong about this, a lot of the time, that if they would ask, they’re going to get an answer like you should just know, or I don’t know, or they’re going to be asked to do something that they feel is a compromise of their values, or something. Now, a lot of this is imagined. They just assume that will happen, so they don’t bother asking. But for some of them, you know, I’ve tested and they did get responses like that because they’ve established this pattern that she’s familiar with. So what happens when the guy tries his best to step back and say, Look, how can I support you? And the response he gets is really discouraging or confusing or difficult to handle?
Monica T 18:42
Yeah, keep asking questions. I mean, get curious and like, really learning how to communicate, like, what’s going on for you in an honest way. So one thing I noticed is, you’re saying maybe they’ve established a dynamic, and this is what I do all day long with couples, is I help them recognize the dynamic that they’re in and then choose differently. Because once the problem is is that most couples are caught in a dynamic that they cannot see. I always say you can’t see the label from the inside of the bottle, and so that’s when you hire a coach or somebody to help you see what’s going on in your dynamic and how you’re pulling each other into the same familiar dance that isn’t working well, right? So the way you change the dynamic is by doing something different. So if you’re caught in a dynamic where you’re constantly fixing things for your partner, try doing something different. Try saying hey, like, I know you’re used to me just stepping in and fixing this, but I feel confident that you will know exactly what to do, and if you need my help, I’m here without being condescending. That sounded a little condescending, but like, you know your partner, like, hey, like, I know you’re gonna figure out what to do, and I’m on. Your side. I’m here for you of whatever you need, but I’m not going to fix it, right? Because that’s what I always do, and it’s not working very well. Or if they say something like you should just know, be like, Oh honey, I love you so much. I’m 100% on your side, but I can’t read your mind. You’re going to have to tell me what to do right now, in this moment, to support you, right? Like you just want to be honest, that relationship is only as strong as as much honesty as it can handle. And so you’re talking about maybe this codependent relationship. Well, there’s probably not a lot of honesty there. So you’ve got to just, you’ve got to be brave and courageous, and you’ve got to put more honesty on the table. You’ve got to say, Listen, I feel like I always jump in and fix this, and I feel like maybe that’s not working for us very well. So in this instance, I would love to just step back and let you handle it. And if you need me, I’m right here now.
Dan Munro 20:58
We’re talking about honesty, which is, like, my favorite topic in the world, and we’re going to dig into that. But before we do, one of the things that you’ve brought up here, that I know is a topic you go deep on, which is resentment and blame, one of the main blocks I see to guys applying the stuff that you’re talking about, which is actually fairly straightforward, practical advice there is that the fixing is correlated highly with a lot of resentment, so they’ll actually blame their partner for feeling like they’re the fixer, even though they’ve kind of engineered that dynamic themselves. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about resentment and these kinds of relationships, how it builds and when it’s gotten really high, like, what the couple needs to do to address it before they can even address all the other stuff
Monica T 21:55
that’s waiting behind. Yeah, great question. I feel like resentment is almost always about an unexpressed expectation. So if you’re feeling resentment, it doesn’t mean that anything has gone wrong. It means that something needs to be addressed because you have an expectation that has not been expressed. So a lot of solving the resentment problem in a relationship is about asking for what it is that you actually want. So resentment creates here’s here’s what happens when people start to feel resentment, they start to complain about stuff, whether they do it out loud to a friend or family member, or they’re just doing it under their breath. It doesn’t matter. What most humans do with resentment is they just start to complain. My wife is always asking for my help with stuff that she should be able to do on her own or like she’s there. We don’t have enough intimacy in our marriage like she’s not, you know, meeting my needs or whatever, like, whatever it is that you’re what you feel resentful about, whatever you’re complaining about. Your complaints like this is a good exercise you could do into a journal that, like later, you’re gonna destroy so nobody ever sees so you don’t have to be embarrassed about it. But like, if you’re feeling a lot of resentment, I always encourage people to just start writing like, like, just unfiltered thought. Download about it. Here are all of my complaints about what’s going on and why I’m sad and frustrated and resentful, and then look at it and see what is the desire underneath all of those complaints, whenever you’re complaining about something, it actually means that you want something. There’s some sort of desire that you’re either not getting or you’re you weren’t even aware of. But if your complaint is my wife is always expecting me to solve all of her problems, your desire is for your wife to start solving her own problems, right? There’s a request. Let’s let’s do one that’s a little more like, relatable. Like, let’s say your resentment is around intimacy. Like, we never have sex anymore, we never go out. We never she never touches me anymore. Like, you know, she claims she’s all touched out at the end of the day from the kids, and I’m I’m not getting any attention. Those are all your complaints. What’s your desire underneath that is to have some more intimacy, to be able to make time for some, you know, physical intimacy together. Okay, that’s your request. Now I teach a lot of skills around how to skillfully ask your partner for what it is that you want. So get really clear, because the whole goal is to be specific. If you make a big, broad request like I would like us to be more intimate, what does that a. And mean, how do you know when you’ve actually gotten there or done that or won right? Making a request requires you to be specific about what it is you want. I would like to have sex twice a week. Maybe that’s your very specific ask. So the first step is to be willing to rock the boat with love. I like to specify. Remember love. Remember that you’re talking to the person that you love and you live with, and the reason you’re talking to them is because you want to make things better for both of you. So that’s step one, get your head straight. Step two, be hyper specific about what it is that you want and like. Make it so easy for your partner to do it for you. So your request is, I would like to be sexually intimate with you twice a week. Now here’s the bonus question that’s really specific. Like, you know, okay, you could check that off a list twice a week. That’s what I want right now. Here’s the bonus question, What can I do to make it easier for you to give this to me? Now, your wife might say something like, there’s no chance, no shot in hell. We’re going to be intimate twice a week, then you have to deal with that. But maybe she says, All right,
I can try to do that. And you ask the bonus question, which is, what can I do to make this easier for you, to give this to me, or to do this for me? And she might say, you put the baby to bed twice a week. You fix dinner, clean up, put the baby to bed. I get 20 minutes to relax, all to myself, to unwind, to get in the mood, all of those things. And you’re like, shoot, yeah, I can do that all right. Let’s do it right. And then your third step of making a good request is to show appreciation. So let’s say one night, you do all the things you’re supposed to do, and you put the baby to bed, but the baby just will not stop crying. You made an attempt, you did what you were supposed to do, and your your wife tried, made an attempt to like, unwind and relax and get ready for some intimacy, but the baby just wouldn’t stop crying. You are going to appreciate the effort that she made towards the goal. So I really appreciate, like I love it, that I, you know, was able to spend extra time with the baby, and that you were able to relax a little bit. I’m sad that it didn’t turn out the way we both had hoped. But thank you for making the effort. That’s the three step process of making a request, and most any resentments can be addressed, not solved, always completely, 100% but they can all be addressed by making a good request.
Dan Munro 27:58
I think you nailed one of the main truths, which is a lot of these resentments have not had a direct request, at least attempted. You know that they’ve imagined it. But there is one particular barrier for that that I’m keen to your thoughts on, which is the self sacrificing type. So a lot of guys would actually feel a lot of shame and guilt about making this request, because they think it’s some burden on the partner any type of request, and that they had this their whole life, since before the relationship. They’ve always felt like, I give, but I’m not allowed to receive. You know, I fixed back fixed. And so they get into this trap where they build up a lot of resentment from all these unrequested desires, but they hit a wall when it comes to requesting a desire because they feel like they’re so somehow harming someone something.
Monica T 28:51
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that’s just part of the human condition. It’s prevalent in guys. It’s really prevalent in women, as well as we think it to be. If we’re a good woman, we don’t have any desires. We just sacrifice all the time, right? Like we both, society has given all of us that message. So yes, that does have to be unwound a bit. But the reality is, is you can think that, and then you have two choices. You can either just ask for the thing that you want. And when we’re talking about sexual intimacy, that’s that encompasses a lot. I mean, really that’s, instead of going right to the let’s have sex twice a week, you could be like, Hey, I’d like to create a really healthy, thriving, fulfilling sexual relationship between the two of us. Can we, like, figure out what that looks like for both of us and see if we can’t come up with a really, you know, great scenario that we’re both excited about? Like, that could be your request, right? Like, let’s sit down and figure this out together. But let like. Backing up off of that, you have two choices. You can either make the request and work as a team and and create something, or you can just stuff it down and resent your partner, like they’re both like, like the resentment is definitely more poisonous. They say a lot of times like unforgiveness or resentment is like drinking poison and expecting somebody else to die, right? So if you’re carrying around a lot of resentment, you’re literally drinking poison and you’re punishing you and your partner. You’re like, infecting your relationship really, like, I want to write a book and want to like the it’s like, where intimacy goes to die, and resentment is like number one. How do you kill intimacy? You carry a bunch of resentment. So it’s about just changing your mindset around it. You can be like, well, like, I want to be a good person, and a good person doesn’t have wants and needs. But does a good person really walk around and resent everybody. No, they just ask for things, right? So you’ve got to kind of work with that inside of yourself, or get a coach that can help you work through that.
Dan Munro 31:13
Yeah, that’s what I had to do, okay? Because this year, we’re getting really into the deepest part of this now, which I think is most important, because resentment is kind of like that bottleneck. If you’re not going to deal with that, there’s nothing else you can deal with. It’s all going to be tainted by it. Right? Then the question immediately sort of comes up for me, is, we’ve got a guy who knows he’s got resentments and either doesn’t want to deal with it or lacks the capacity the bravery to deal with it right now, at least he has awareness. What I’ve noticed quite often is that if you bring up the topic that somebody resents their partner, they’ll deny it, even though the evidence is abundantly clear that they do imagine if somebody right now really resents their partner, but isn’t aware that they do, because this is something they’ve done their whole life, like fix and resent or whatever it is. It’s a pattern, if you’re talking to them, how would you you know, maybe with examples or just ideas, make them aware that they actually might be quite a resentful person, and that that’s the secret problem that’s going on with their relationship?
Monica T 32:22
Yeah, I mean, I would just encourage a lot of self reflection and writing. Like, it’s so funny because I work with a lot of younger people now, like, I’ve started to work with younger people, and I’m like, get out of pen and paper. And they’re like, pen and paper, like, can I just take notes on my phone? And I’m like, no, no pen paper, and it’s just like, such a it’s such a funny concept for the younger generation that’s used to doing everything electronically. But I think there’s something so healing about putting pen to paper and just write out what you’re feeling like most. I don’t want to say most. There are a lot of men who you’re right. They’re not really in touch with their feelings. They’re walking around feeling super resentful. They know they have a problem, but they have no idea what it is or where to start with it. And so I love to just give them the assignment is like at the end of the day, or whenever you’re feeling the most burdened or put upon or frustrated, maybe you get home from work and your your spouse immediately meets you at the door with a whole bunch of demands, and you’re like, like you’re feeling very put upon, that’s a great time to be like, You know what? I need to take 20 minutes for myself, and then I can come out here and be the nice guy that you’re very tempted to be right like and fix all the problems or whatever. Take that 20 minutes, just go in your bedroom or in a quiet place and just let your brain free flow all the thoughts that are in there. Because here’s the thing, if they’re just rattling around in your brain, you’re not, you’re you’re literally not hiding it from anyone. That’s what I think is so funny, as a lot of people are like, Oh well, I mean, if I write it down, then people will see it and they’ll know what I’m thinking you’re thinking it anyways. And people are really good at tracking other people. So if you’re having a bunch of thoughts that are rattling around in your brain, I guarantee the people close to you could tell you what those are. So just get them out on paper so you can look at them, you can deal with them, and you can decide, are these thoughts serving me, or are they keeping me stuck somehow? Are they keeping me in resentment? You want to be able to look at the thoughts because something that’s so great, and this is great news, thoughts are optional. I like to think about thoughts like clothes. If you put on a really frumpy sweatshirt, and you like, want to go out and like, impress your wife, and you’re like, feeling super frumpy in this sweatshirt, like you. You have the option to go in and change into something that makes you feel more sexy, right? So it’s the same with a thought, if you if you’re having the thought that my wife is so demanding and nagging I walk in from work and immediately she’s giving me things to do and hold this and do this and pick this person up and watch the baby and and I feel super put upon with all of this, right? That’s the thought, how are you going to show up? Frustrated, resentful. You might do it because you’re a nice guy, but then you’re like, cuss, like cussing under your breath the whole time. Like, why is my wife so demanding? You’re not hiding it from anyone. They can feel that, but they’re probably taking advantage of your nice guy tendencies. Okay, so why not put it down on paper and be like, let’s just get really honest. How about I can see that I feel resentful because I feel really put upon what is my request? My request is maybe I need 20 minutes to unwind after a busy day at work, I need to be able to change my clothes, get something to eat and like zone out and stare at the wall for 15 minutes before I jump into family life. There’s your request. You can be super specific about it. You go to your spouse and you say, Hey, honey, I noticed that every day when I get home from work, you immediately task me with 100 things, and I do them. But I’m resentful about it, and what I really would like is 20 minutes to completely unwind and just like get out of work mode before I jump into family life. Can we figure out a way to make that possible? You’ve just solved literally years of resentment?
Dan Munro 36:50
Yeah, that’s a pretty, pretty powerful technique. And what kind of things do you imagine they’re going to see in their writing that would tell them that they’ve got a lot of bottled up resentment. I mean, you already mentioned, say
Monica T 37:03
words, complaining, complaining, complaining, right? Whatever you’re complaining about. It means there’s a request there, and you probably never made it fair enough.
Dan Munro 37:17
What’s the next step? Let’s say you make the request and it’s denied. Then what do we do with them?
Monica T 37:23
Your wife is like, No, you immediately have to start into family life, something like that. Or, you know, or perhaps it’s more of a request that really is up to them, and they just say, no, let’s say you want some very specific sexual thing, and they’re just not into it, and that’s just a deal breaker for them, or you, yeah, you want that 20 minutes, but that 20 minutes is just not available for them at that time, or something like that, something kind of reasonable, a reasonable no on their side, but now you still got, yeah. I mean, this happens all the time. I mean, that’s the beauty of a request. It’s it’s vulnerable, because your partner can accept or deny the request, right? I mean, they have their agency. You’re not forcing them into something. You’re making a request, and they can decide whether or not they want to grant that to you. So now you have a choice as well. You can decide, all right, what am I going to do with this? So I have there a couple that I worked with really early on, when I started this I remember she was a food blogger, and so early in their in their marriage, they had made the kind of the contract that she was going to take care of dinner. She loved preparing like elaborate meals, but she hated cleaning up the kitchen afterwards. And so the husband loved the great food that she prepared, and he’s like, all clean up the kitchen. So they kind of made this arrangement where she would cook and he would clean up. And then life got busy and he changed jobs. And now his job, he was a principal at a at a middle school, and so his job required that he would have to stay after school into the evenings, a lot of times with sports, and they had a couple of kids, and so he would come home late and he’d want to hang out with his kids, and he didn’t want to clean the kitchen. And the wife was like, bro, we this is what we decided to do. Like, I don’t want to always be cleaning the kitchen, because then I missed out on family time and the fun and hang out with the kids and, you know, so, like, we have a problem, and she made a request, and he was like, I don’t want to do the dishes anymore. Like life has changed. The circumstances have changed. I’m not going to fulfill that request. And immediately, once she understood that, and she stopped expecting him to do it and resenting him for not doing it. Once they had that conversation, she was like, Okay, well, listen, I would like the dishes to be done, and my husband’s not going to do it, so how else can I get the dishes done? And she came up with this fantastic. Solution, which was to hire a teenager that lived down the street. She paid her $3 an evening to come in and do the dishes so that she and her husband could hang out, play with the kids and get them ready for bed together, and when they were done, the kitchen was clean, and that’s how she solved the problem. But she couldn’t get to that part of her brain, the creative problem solving part of her brain, while she was walking around, resenting and being upset and expecting her husband to do the thing that he agreed to do, right? So she had to make the request, and he had to say no, and then she was like, Oh, all right, well, I have a problem, and there’s tons of ways to solve this problem, right? The teenager came for, you know, however long until the kids were old enough, and then she gave the kids dish nights, and then, as a family, they would kind of work in the kitchen together, and it was like something that they did, but she couldn’t get creative about solving the problem while she was resentful and expecting her husband to do it. So that’s like a good analogy of whatever that you’re resenting. Get it out there, make the request, your partner’s not always going to fulfill the request, and then you have to decide, well, what am I going to do now? Can I solve this in a different way, or am I just going to let it be how it is, and now I’m not expecting my partner to do it anymore because they said they weren’t going to do it.
Dan Munro 41:26
I can hear that key theme coming through around expectations, where if whatever he does at least removes the expectation, then that in itself is a solution for resentment. It makes me think, like your your example, that woman was really mature and moving forward after the node to find another way. I think what a lot of guys listening, the reason they get stuck with resentment is because they’re afraid of the No, terrified of it they would call rejection. And the way you do, it’s not so much a rejection. It’s the first draft of a solution, and if it’s no, then you go to the second draft of the solution. But a lot of guys, I think they think, not only would a no be the final devastating blow on this thing can never be solved, but also would be some sort of reflection on them as person that I asked for something, she says no, that means I’m a bad person for asking.
Monica T 42:21
That’s a lot of meaning you’re attaching to that. Yeah. I mean, that is also something I would say, go to a thought download. And if, if your thought is her saying no means I’m a bad person, or I’m asking for something ridiculous, or whatever, I would say, Let’s examine those thoughts. Let’s work on those thoughts, because that thought is optional, and that is like a really frumpy sweatshirt, like you walking around with that idea in your head is really keeping you stuck. So let’s find a different thought. Like, wow, I am proud of my wife for standing up for herself in this situation. And there’s got to be some other solution, maybe we can find it together. That’s a more empowering thought.
Dan Munro 43:07
Yeah, and it takes some work to get there. I’m sure. Couple of things to finish up on that I wanted to check with you. One is, like I said earlier, intimacy is one of the main complaints they get, especially with people pleased to type relationships. Intimacy is one go, either the guy feels like he’s getting rejected all the time, or the girl says the guy’s not even trying to initiate anymore, or both. And one causes the other resentment. We’ve covered it in detail. What are some of the other like? If poor sex life is a symptom, what? What do you see as often the causes that often the people can’t see,
Monica T 43:52
I would say. And I just did a podcast episode on this, is it? Oh, it’s actually not out yet. It’s March. In the month of March, I’m doing a whole the theme for March is getting lucky, and the first step of creating a really great intimate relationship, like intimate sexual relationship, is emotional safety. So if there is a lot of resentment in the relationship or a lot of unspoken expectations, that’s not creating a lot of emotional safety. So what I would say is it’s going to be awkward, but have conversations that create more honesty in the relationship, because the more emotional safety, the more you can count on your partner to be honest with you and like revealing and vulnerable with their desires, with their expectations, with their fantasies, whatever it is, right if, if you feel comfortable and confident that my partner is being honest with me, they’re. Sharing themselves with me, even if they’re afraid that I might not approve or not like it, but they’re willing to take that risk anyways, that’s a lot of emotional safety and trust, and the more honest you can be with each other. I often recommend around this idea of of sexual intimacy, I say that couples should once a week Connect. I call it sex talk Tuesdays or whatever day works for you, right? I say once a week go for a walk or go for a drive if the weather is not, you know, favorable, but not so you’re not in the bedroom, and you’re not like looking at each other eye to eye, because that’s super awkward, right? You’re moving in the same direction. You’re either walking or driving together, and you get real honest about what you both might agree is an uncomfortable topic, like, listen, I our sexual intimacy or our sexual relationship, is really important to me, and I want to just talk about it, get honest about it, vulnerable about it, like, let’s both just share our thoughts and ideas about what would make this more pleasurable, fun, enjoyable, creative, passionate for both of us, right? And then you just awkwardly fumble through that, but you’ve got to create the emotional safety to be able to do that, and that emotional safety is the bedrock for intimacy.
Dan Munro 46:37
Couldn’t agree more, and I love that you validate this awkward fumble idea. Like, I think a lot of people hesitate on this conversation because they know it’s going to be like that. And for many of them, they might just lack the permission to have a conversation that is an awkward fumble. And might be quite a few awkward fumbles before it gets even remotely secure to talk about, yeah, yeah.
Monica T 46:59
And you just got to be honest, like, Hey, listen, I am not good at talking about this topic, but it’s worth it, because I think it’s really important. And so as awkward and, you know, uncomfortable as I feel right now, I’m willing to, like, fumble through it, because I want to make sure that we both feel comfortable and safe and you know, like we’re getting what we want out of this, right? Otherwise, what are we doing? Right? We talk about creating happily ever after. And Happily Ever After is room for both partners to get what they want. You don’t want to give kids everything that they want, right, because then you create a bunch of entitled children. But as an adult, there’s really no reason why you can’t both get what you want, but you’ve got to both be willing to work together, to collaborate, to do the work, the effort required, to know what it is you want, and then fight for it in your relationship, not fight with each other. Fight for what you want because you there’s no reason why you both can’t co create an amazing, beautiful, creative, fulfilling, passionate life together.
Dan Munro 48:13
Agreed. Let me what you’ve said today and see if I’ve got the general arc here, and then I’ll ask you to share where people can find your work. And then maybe we’ll finish off with like your top tip or something like that. But I think the main thing I’m taking away from our conversation is this kind of arc where you start with this fixing dynamic, you build up resentment, which is the result of mostly unrequested desires, or at least unfulfilled or both. You will notice that you have this because you have a lot of complaints, whether they’re internal or to others, but certainly not directly request to the partner, and that’s making that request and then working through the awkward fumble, or perhaps there’s might be some no’s and some rejections and back and forth to get to a place where, at the very least there’s no more expectations that can’t be met. So the general arc that we’re going through,
Monica T 49:16
yeah, absolutely, that’s the general arc. The General arc is like at the end of your life, do you want to be hanging out with your best friend, your intimate friend and your passionate partner, right? Like that’s what we want. We want this deep and abiding sense of friendship. And in order to do that, you need respect, and you have to realize, in order to create that, that you’re two very different people. You come from two different backgrounds, you have two different experiences, different preferences, perspectives, opinions about things, right? And so the the goal is not to make them match. The goal is to respect each other’s differences and value them, and that requires a lot of curiosity. So if you’re gonna like what is the main takeaway that I would want people to get? Get curious. Get curious about your own desires. Get curious about your partner, get curious about what you value, what’s important to you, what makes you you. And get curious about your partner about the same things. Whenever your partner, like does something that you don’t understand, or makes a request that you’re not so sure about, default to compassionate curiosity. Just ask more questions. Instead of like, immediately turning it down or immediately feeling rejected, or immediately feeling like you’re not a good person, or whatever those thoughts that were coming up that you were talking about, just get curious. Like, huh, tell me more about that. Or huh like, explain to me what that’s like for you. Like, get compassionately curious. It’s kind
Dan Munro 51:08
of like the opposite of defensive, right?
Monica T 51:09
Exactly, exactly, yeah, that that’s, it’s the anecdote to being defensive is just getting curious. Like, if you feel stuck, you’re like wanting to put your walls up, or wanting to be upset or feel resentful or whatever like, what is a good question I could ask right now to get more information about the situation so I can understand my partner better.
Dan Munro 51:36
Very good. Now, if people wanted to work with you further or learn more about what you do. What’s the best place for them to go check that out?
Monica T 51:46
Yeah, I would direct them to my website, which is my name, Monica tanner.com, there you can learn about my free resources, like my podcast, Secrets of happily ever after and how to work with me further. Yeah, cool, cool.
Dan Munro 51:59
I’ll make sure all the links and everything are on all the show notes before we sign off. I mean, you might have already said this, but maybe you can come on something else. But if there was a daily practice we would recommend for someone that’s like, if they did this, they’re giving their marriage a really good shot. What do you think that would be?
Monica T 52:21
I think they would be compassionately curious about their partner’s subjective reality. And that sounds like a big mouthful, but we’ve literally been talking about it this whole time. It really is, understanding that your partner is different, and that’s okay. In fact, that’s actually a good thing like that blesses your life. So instead of feeling like this would be easier if you would just see it my way, get really curious about how they actually see it or experience it.
Dan Munro 52:58
Yeah, I don’t think I could agree anymore with that, that’s exactly the cure to all the illness. You know, I remember reading in the Gottman Institute, they’re talking about resentment gets to a certain level called contempt, and once it gets basically irreparable, you can’t come back from there. And so the goal of good marriage is just not ever letting it get to the right cause of the divorce. Look, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your own back story with us today, and just so much practical tips there that if people could go and apply immediately, they really want to see the results here, if
Monica T 53:39
I could leave you with one thing, it would be, don’t try and do all of this immediately. Pick one thing. Pick one thing and try to do that today, tonight, in your marriage this week, right? Like, don’t get overwhelmed and be like, Oh my gosh. She said so many things. Just pick one thing.
Dan Munro 54:00
Absolutely Cool. Well, any other final thoughts or anything before we wrap it up today?
Monica T 54:07
That’s it. Pick one thing. I promise, if you even, even if you do these skills badly, you’re still in much better shape than if you don’t use them at all.
Dan Munro 54:17
Hmm, yeah, I think the attempt is at least something right, compared to just sitting there and stewing and cool all righty Monica, thank you very much. That was really good.
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