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From “Nice Guy” to Confident in 90 Days

Being “nice” still isn’t working, is it?

You try to please everyone – partner, boss, friends, kids – and then secretly resent them for holding you back, even though you know it’s really your lack of boundaries and assertiveness. Relationships feel tense or flat. Your job pays the bills but feels like a soul‑draining compromise. 

You censor what you really think and feel, swallow frustration, and end up with resentment, anxiety, and occasional bursts of anger that scare you. You worry that one day you’ll either explode at someone you love or collapse into anxious depression and give up on yourself.

You lie awake wondering if you’re destined to always be the “nice guy” who’s never truly respected.

That’s exactly where many of my clients started. Now they speak their minds calmly on the spot, stand up to high‑status people without blinking, build deep, honest relationships, and live according to their values rather than guilt and fear. 

This coaching offer is designed to help you make that same shift with a clear, concrete roadmap… and without any high-pressure sales calls.

> LEARN MORE HERE

Today we’re going to talk about flirting.

I’ve got a special guest for you today, Marni Kynris, known as The Wing Girl. She is the inventor of the Wing Girl method, and she has been around in the dating game for a very long time. Even back when I was doing my pickup artist thing, she was around, and she has been giving men advice on how to date and successfully connect with women for decades.

Today, we’re going to be talking about flirting, in particular, how to bring fun, sexual, romantic banter into a conversation, particularly when you suffer from Nice Guy Syndrome and you have a tendency to be too serious, or you’re worried about crossing the line and unable to bring sexual tension into a connection because you’re too afraid of rejection.

She’s got a lot of great advice and stories for you. I can’t wait to share it with you. Let’s get into it!

Summary

Pickup Artist Community Evolution Discussion

Dan and Marni discussed their shared history in the pickup artist community from about 20 years ago, noting how the movement has evolved over time. They agreed that the community has shifted from its original focus on authentic connection to a more controversial and misogynistic direction, with many former members moving away from the approach altogether. The conversation ended with plans to focus on Marni’s work and record a proper introduction for the podcast.

Overcoming Nice Guy Syndrome

Marni discussed her 24-year career as a wing girl helping men overcome “nice guy syndrome” by teaching them to show their authentic selves rather than filtered, watered-down versions. She explained that the nice guy approach creates anxiety and keeps people at a distance, while genuine honesty can be an aphrodisiac. The conversation touched on themes of self-sabotage and the idea that nice guy syndrome involves lacking attractive traits after filtering out authentic characteristics.

Honesty in Dating Strategy

Dan discussed the balance between honesty and strategy in dating and attraction, describing a healthy middle ground between raw honesty and total deception. Marni responded by explaining her concept of “honest with tact,” emphasizing the importance of composed, well-thought-out honesty rather than unfiltered emotional outbursts. Marni also discussed a specific exercise called “I am *****” which involves men practicing confidence and asking women for feedback, explaining that this helps men understand what unfiltered statements women actually appreciate.

Romantic Communication Boundaries Discussion

Dan and Marni discussed the nuances between oversharing and considered deep sharing in romantic contexts. Marni provided an example of inappropriate oversharing through a client’s text message that included excessive apologies, while contrasting it with a more appropriate example of vulnerable but concise communication about being freshly divorced and seeking new experiences. They emphasized that authentic vulnerability should be honest but not apologetic for one’s desires or current situation.

Honest Communication in Relationships

Dan and Marni discussed the importance of honest communication in romantic relationships, emphasizing the need for “shameless honesty” that is direct yet tactful. They agreed that over-explaining or giving excessive information can be misleading and counterproductive to honest communication. The conversation concluded with Dan raising a question about maintaining honesty while still being playful and flirtatious in relationships, suggesting this might be a common challenge for people transitioning to more honest communication styles.

Social Skills Development Strategies

Marni discussed the importance of taking “baby steps” in developing social skills, emphasizing that people should start with basic training and gradually progress to more advanced techniques. She explained how playfulness and flirting are skills that need to be learned, often requiring people to overcome programming from childhood that discourages bold behavior. Marni shared her personal experience of learning to be more confident and playful at age 19 in New Zealand, and noted that many men need to unlearn societal restrictions on being funny or direct with women before they can naturally express themselves.

Flirting Program and Techniques

Marni defined flirting as “adult play” and explained her program called The F Formula teaches three different phases of flirting, with a PG-13 level that can be used with everyone including grocery store clerks and strangers. She emphasized starting interactions with playful banter rather than formal introductions, noting that confident people maintain the same playful attitude with everyone regardless of context. Dan agreed with this approach, citing it as a key difference between confident and less confident people, and suggested involving Zach Justice as a role model who demonstrates this behavior effectively.

Practical Flirting Techniques Training

Marni shared practical flirting techniques with Dan, focusing on how to help serious individuals incorporate playfulness into their interactions. She recommended starting with the “disagreement” technique – playfully disagreeing with someone while maintaining a smile and light tone. Marni emphasized that the key to successful flirting lies in how something is said rather than the content itself, and she described flirting as “adult play” that can be more palatable for those unfamiliar with the concept.

Transitioning Playful Banter to Romance

Dan discussed his challenge in transitioning playful, non-sexual banter into romantic interactions, particularly fearing misinterpretation as harassment. Marni explained that successful playfulness requires mutual engagement and suggested strategies for gradually introducing honesty into the interaction, emphasizing the importance of reading the other person’s reactions and gradually escalating based on their responses.

Building Confidence in Social Interactions

Dan and Marni discussed strategies for building confidence in social interactions and dating, emphasizing the importance of taking gradual “baby steps” rather than making sudden leaps. They explored how to read social cues correctly, distinguishing between tension and rejection, and the role of honest communication in building connections. Marni shared insights about maintaining flirting and connection in relationships, warning that neglecting this can harm the relationship’s health. They also addressed common misconceptions about manipulation in relationships and discussed the demographic of men seeking dating advice, noting that the most successful clients are those willing to take responsibility for their growth and change.

Transcript

14:57:38 –> 14:57:40
marni kinrys: Hi.

14:57:40 –> 14:57:42
Dan Munro: Good morning.

14:57:40 –> 14:57:42
marni kinrys: Hi!

14:57:42 –> 14:57:44
Dan Munro: Good afternoon, whatever it is.

14:57:43 –> 14:57:51
marni kinrys: Uh, it is morning, so just giving you a heads up, like, I am not in makeup or anything, so, um…

14:57:50 –> 14:57:52
Dan Munro: Good.

14:57:51 –> 14:58:06
marni kinrys: My son is back from summer camp and picked him up yesterday morning and he’s still, we’re at my parents’ in Toronto and he’s still sleeping in the room where I usually work. So I didn’t get to get myself ready. So hopefully this is okay.

14:58:06 –> 14:58:11
Dan Munro: This is fine. My whole show’s about being real anyway, so that’s good.

14:58:09 –> 14:58:18
marni kinrys: Exactly. That’s what I was going to say. I was like, hey, you’re about a nice guy. I’m not going to apologize for being like this, but just in case you did want to reschedule.

14:58:17 –> 14:58:20
Dan Munro: No, I’m totally cool with it.

14:58:20 –> 14:58:21
marni kinrys: Okay, great!

14:58:21 –> 14:58:23
Dan Munro: It’s even possible.

14:58:21 –> 14:58:27
marni kinrys: I’m excited. This is one of my favorite topics, so I love that this is what you’re doing for people.

14:58:27 –> 14:58:33
Dan Munro: Cool, cool, yeah, I’ve, um… shall I start the recording, just in case anything good happens?

14:58:32 –> 14:58:34
marni kinrys: I know, I always do that too.

14:58:36 –> 14:58:37
Dan Munro: Um, but…

14:58:37 –> 14:58:41
Dan Munro: Yeah, like, what am I, I’m 42 now, so…

14:58:41 –> 14:58:45
Dan Munro: Like almost 20 years ago, I was into the whole pickup artist thing.

14:58:45 –> 14:58:47
marni kinrys: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:58:46 –> 14:58:52
Dan Munro: Way back then. I remember seeing you coming up way back then, you know.

14:58:50 –> 14:58:53
marni kinrys: Yeah. Oh, God. So I’m old is what you’re saying. Yeah.

14:58:53 –> 14:58:55
Dan Munro: So am I, is what I’m saying.

14:58:54 –> 14:58:59
marni kinrys: Exactly. I know. We’re the same age. So then it works out. Yeah.

14:58:57 –> 14:58:58
Dan Munro: Mm-hmm.

14:58:58 –> 14:59:00
Dan Munro: um…

14:59:00 –> 14:59:05
Dan Munro: And I can see both of us have, like, drifted towards, like, this more authentic…

14:59:05 –> 14:59:21
marni kinrys: Yeah, which I, which I think honestly, I think it’s just age, right? When you’re 20 something, you, you just think in black and white and you think in one direction. So I understand why that pickup artist world of quick and easy and I’m in charge and I get to win.

14:59:05 –> 14:59:07
Dan Munro: Kind of.

14:59:18 –> 14:59:19
Dan Munro: Mm-hmm.

14:59:21 –> 14:59:38
marni kinrys: rules, but every single person that was in that pickup artist world, I think as they got older, they started… I think once they got into their first relationship with a really solid woman, that’s when it started to shift for them. They’re like, oh, I can do this, and still be a nice person, a good person, an authentic person, so…

14:59:38 –> 14:59:43
marni kinrys: Yeah, I love that this is the direction you went. But it’s funny, I did this podcast yesterday, where…

14:59:43 –> 14:59:49
marni kinrys: I was talking about being a part of the pickup artist world, and we started talking about…

14:59:49 –> 14:59:58
marni kinrys: I think the most negative thing around the pickup artist world, it wasn’t necessarily what people were teaching, it was the perception of what people were teaching.

14:59:58 –> 14:59:59
Dan Munro: Hmm. Okay.

14:59:58 –> 15:00:15
marni kinrys: It was the way that people reacted to it. So I don’t really remember it being so horribly misogynistic, not like the manosphere is now. Do you? Or maybe I’m just blocking it out because I have, like, really good memories of it, but I don’t remember it being.

15:00:15 –> 15:00:21
marni kinrys: so horrific. There were a few people, but most of it was really good stuff.

15:00:22 –> 15:00:33
Dan Munro: I would say the main difference I’ve noticed is back then, a majority of us loved women. We loved them. That was the whole point of us being there.

15:00:29 –> 15:00:31
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:00:32 –> 15:00:33
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:00:33 –> 15:00:38
Dan Munro: And a small fraction were misogynistic, a small fraction were kind of…

15:00:39 –> 15:00:42
Dan Munro: You know, hit it and quit it type approach.

15:00:41 –> 15:00:43
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:00:42 –> 15:00:52
Dan Munro: Um, and I think the ratio shifted over the years, alongside, you know, social media rewarding, like, more controversial kind of takes.

15:00:50 –> 15:00:52
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:00:52 –> 15:00:57
Dan Munro: And so now it’s like the other way around, where most of the people in that…

15:00:57 –> 15:00:58
Dan Munro: sphere.

15:00:59 –> 15:01:13
Dan Munro: I just don’t seem to actually really like women. Um, and the rest of us sort of moved on, because we’re like, hey, turns out women can like us for who we are, and we already like them for who we are, so this is working out pretty well. We don’t do all this stuff anymore.

15:01:10 –> 15:01:12
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:01:13 –> 15:01:22
Dan Munro: And so we left, I guess, a vacuum for the, I guess, the people who were left behind, still not in relationships, still not actually getting any real traction and love.

15:01:23 –> 15:01:31
Dan Munro: They were the only ones left in the forums and so on. Everyone else was moving on, and so the ratio shifted. That’s my take on it anyway, but.

15:01:30 –> 15:01:32
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:01:31 –> 15:01:33
Dan Munro: It’s, it’s kind of.

15:01:32 –> 15:01:41
marni kinrys: No, I think I agree with your take as well, because they were always the angry ones, but they were more mad at themselves. They just couldn’t see it.

15:01:40 –> 15:01:42
Dan Munro: Thank you.

15:01:41 –> 15:01:58
marni kinrys: Like we can, we’re gonna talk about nice guy today. So I think like that’s where a lot of it is rooted. Some people can get out of this nice guy loop and pattern and some people cannot see an exit and then sometimes veer off into anger and frustration and resentment.

15:01:58 –> 15:02:00
marni kinrys: And then it gets really ******

15:02:00 –> 15:02:11
Dan Munro: Well, I think you’re onto it with the resentment thing, which is the majority of us back in the day, we took responsibility for our struggles with women. It’s like, this is a me problem. I need to solve this.

15:02:10 –> 15:02:11
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:02:11 –> 15:02:21
Dan Munro: And all the forums, all the workshops, boot camps and everything I went to, everyone was like, I got to sort my **** out this. I’m gonna find I need to figure out how to go over to them.

15:02:17 –> 15:02:18
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:02:20 –> 15:02:26
marni kinrys: Yeah, you’re right. And now people say, oh, it’s not your problem, it’s their problem. You’re right about that.

15:02:26 –> 15:02:27
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:02:26 –> 15:02:28
Dan Munro: Exactly. What…

15:02:27 –> 15:02:31
marni kinrys: That’s all, but that’s all marketing, that’s all an angle, right?

15:02:31 –> 15:02:32
marni kinrys: Yeah. Okay.

15:02:32 –> 15:02:33
Dan Munro: Absolutely. And.

15:02:32 –> 15:02:35
marni kinrys: Social media ******

15:02:34 –> 15:02:36
Dan Munro: Yeah.

15:02:35 –> 15:02:39
marni kinrys: It does. It does as we do a podcast, right? Yeah.

15:02:38 –> 15:02:44
Dan Munro: Yeah, but that’s just how it is. It’s brutal, but it’s cool.

15:02:44 –> 15:02:55
Dan Munro: yourself, there’s been a few others, kind of, OGs from those days that I’ve been in touch with, and all of them have transitioned over to much more authentic, kind of, like.

15:02:52 –> 15:02:53
marni kinrys: Oh, yeah.

15:02:55 –> 15:03:04
Dan Munro: Be yourself, but be smart about it, kind of approach, as opposed to kind of trick them into liking you approach, which is kind of how we started in the beginning.

15:03:03 –> 15:03:04
marni kinrys: Yep.

15:03:05 –> 15:03:09
Dan Munro: And as you say, maybe it’s a natural progression with age. For me, it was…

15:03:09 –> 15:03:17
Dan Munro: I started playing with honesty and simply got better results at the start, and I was just like, oh, I didn’t know I could do that, that’s great, like, I don’t have to…

15:03:16 –> 15:03:19
marni kinrys: Oh, that’s interesting. Okay.

15:03:17 –> 15:03:24
Dan Munro: I just simply didn’t have to do all that stuff. And then I started becoming really obsessed with honesty itself and enjoying being honest.

15:03:24 –> 15:03:34
Dan Munro: And that kind of finally took the top of the hierarchy over approval from women, like approval itself finally inched up to the top.

15:03:30 –> 15:03:31
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:03:33 –> 15:03:35
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:03:34 –> 15:03:40
Dan Munro: Um, so yeah, but, uh, we’re gonna focus in on you today, and…

15:03:38 –> 15:03:41
marni kinrys: Okay, yeah, sure.

15:03:41 –> 15:03:42
Dan Munro: I’ll do a big property.

15:03:41 –> 15:03:45
marni kinrys: My favorite topic. No, I’m just joking.

15:03:43 –> 15:03:44
Dan Munro: Good.

15:03:44 –> 15:03:52
Dan Munro: No worries, man. And I’ll do a proper intro for you afterward. Like, I’ll record a little hook, and then…

15:03:48 –> 15:03:49
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:03:52 –> 15:03:56
Dan Munro: We’ll do that separately, but we’ll just keep going with the conversation.

15:03:55 –> 15:03:57
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:03:56 –> 15:03:57
Dan Munro: Um…

15:03:57 –> 15:04:01
Dan Munro: Yeah, I’ve been watching your latest stuff, and…

15:04:01 –> 15:04:09
Dan Munro: Really interested to talk about your perspective on the whole nice guy syndrome thing. I’m sure many of your clients have been in that space.

15:04:08 –> 15:04:10
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:04:09 –> 15:04:12
Dan Munro: And your kind of focus…

15:04:12 –> 15:04:17
Dan Munro: At least when you were sort of when I was getting emails and stuff.

15:04:17 –> 15:04:24
Dan Munro: about flirting and the kind of depth of that topic. It’s not such a light topic, it’s actually a lot to it.

15:04:23 –> 15:04:25
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:04:24 –> 15:04:27
Dan Munro: Really interested to hear about that interested in like.

15:04:27 –> 15:04:37
Dan Munro: post getting into a relationship flirting, like, once the honeymoon’s over, how do you keep the spark going, and how that all correlates with Nice Guy Syndrome, so…

15:04:30 –> 15:04:31
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:04:37 –> 15:04:43
Dan Munro: I don’t know where to start. Maybe let’s start assuming that some people listening don’t know you.

15:04:43 –> 15:04:44
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:04:43 –> 15:04:45
Dan Munro: And with the sort of brief.

15:04:45 –> 15:04:50
Dan Munro: Who are you? What have you been doing for 20 years? And then get into it.

15:04:46 –> 15:04:48
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:04:48 –> 15:04:59
marni kinrys: Uh, so my name is Marnie, and I am a wing girl, and I have been a wing girl to hundreds of thousands of men all over the world for the past…

15:04:59 –> 15:05:15
marni kinrys: oh, God, 24 years now. So by… when I say wing girl, I mean that I offer men a no-BS female perspective on what women want, what turns them on, both for single women and for women in relationships. Um, and I’ve been helping.

15:05:15 –> 15:05:34
marni kinrys: teach men how to become the man women want for 24 years by giving them tips and tactics and tools and techniques and mindsets, like No More Mr. Nice Guy, to help them get out of this space where women aren’t seeing them as ****** options and turning them into men.

15:05:34 –> 15:05:36
marni kinrys: that women want to be with.

15:05:37 –> 15:05:41
Dan Munro: That’s how I understand it as well.

15:05:39 –> 15:05:43
marni kinrys: Yeah, yeah, you’re like, good, I get that, yes.

15:05:41 –> 15:05:43
Dan Munro: Here.

15:05:43 –> 15:05:44
Dan Munro: Um…

15:05:44 –> 15:05:46
Dan Munro: Cool, why don’t we start with just…

15:05:46 –> 15:05:53
Dan Munro: We’ll start broad with your take on this whole Nice Sky thing, what you’ve seen over the years, and…

15:05:54 –> 15:06:01
Dan Munro: just the general, I guess, observations you’ve made about how it affects guys in dating and relationships.

15:05:57 –> 15:05:59
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:06:01 –> 15:06:16
marni kinrys: Well, I think the nice guy loop, I call it the nice guy loop, is something that I understand very deeply, because nice guy loop isn’t just for men, it’s for people. So I myself was a nice guy when I was younger, meaning that.

15:06:16 –> 15:06:32
marni kinrys: I would talk to people, interact with people from a perspective of, if I say what they like to hear, then they’ll like me more. And that never seemed to work for me. It just created more anxiety, more insecurity for me, more distance, really.

15:06:33 –> 15:06:48
marni kinrys: And a larger disconnect from the people that I was interested in because what I was actually doing was just keep keeping people far from me. I wasn’t letting them see who I was. I was filtering out all the amazing stuff about me, the funny stuff, the um.

15:06:48 –> 15:07:02
marni kinrys: the sarcastic stuff, the… the stuff that actually would have made them like me more. Would have made some people dislike me, potentially, but would have made the people who liked me, liked me even more. Um, so that’s an area that…

15:07:02 –> 15:07:17
marni kinrys: I didn’t realize that I was first speaking to when I would coach men, but that’s the area that I predominantly talk to men about, is how to break this nice guy loop, and why it’s so unattractive to women, but ultimately why it’s so unattractive to the men who.

15:07:17 –> 15:07:33
marni kinrys: practice it, and use it, and it’s not really what they want. What they really want is for them to be able to show themselves, and then have somebody else not just accept them, but be attracted to them. And that’s what I’ve been working with men on doing for the past.

15:07:33 –> 15:07:36
marni kinrys: 24 years for breaking that loop.

15:07:36 –> 15:07:53
marni kinrys: Having them stop putting out this nice guy, which is just a filtered, watered-down version of themself that pleases and appeases women, and teach them how freaking amazing they actually are, so that they can show their real selves to women in a fun.

15:07:53 –> 15:08:09
marni kinrys: and playful way, and then not only be accepted by these women, but have them feeling attraction for them. And I’ve been extremely successful at doing them. And we… before, you know, I’m not sure if you’re gonna play the portion that we talked about before, um, but you were talking about how.

15:08:09 –> 15:08:22
marni kinrys: There was a point where you realized honesty was like ***** which I believe as well. And when you, when you are honest in a certain way, it can be one of the biggest aphrodisiacs.

15:08:22 –> 15:08:27
marni kinrys: in the entire world. And that’s what I’m teaching to these men, coupled with.

15:08:27 –> 15:08:32
marni kinrys: techniques and tactics all based in psychology and science that.

15:08:32 –> 15:08:34
marni kinrys: Pull women closer to them.

15:08:37 –> 15:08:40
Dan Munro: There’s so many threads to pull on there.

15:08:40 –> 15:08:48
Dan Munro: There’s a few things, I’ll just note them off the top of my head. One is, you mentioned something that’s really close to my heart at the moment, which is the self-sabotage.

15:08:48 –> 15:08:49
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:08:48 –> 15:08:49
Dan Munro: Okay.

15:08:50 –> 15:08:52
Dan Munro: So good.

15:08:51 –> 15:08:53
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:08:53 –> 15:09:05
Dan Munro: So yeah, so you mentioned something, uh, which I’m a big fan of at the moment as a topic, which is the self-sabotage. So when you’re speaking about your own experience, this kind of unconscious keeping people away.

15:09:05 –> 15:09:06
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:09:06 –> 15:09:09
Dan Munro: Um, then there’s also the…

15:09:09 –> 15:09:20
Dan Munro: Just the idea that nice guy syndrome could be summed up as a lack of ********* and attractive traits, kind of watered down, and whatever’s left after all those are taken out.

15:09:16 –> 15:09:17
marni kinrys: What?

15:09:20 –> 15:09:30
Dan Munro: Um, and then this kind of shift over into honesty. And one of the things I was really interested in talking to you about in particular, because this is an ongoing sort of debate.

15:09:30 –> 15:09:32
Dan Munro: Me and my audience.

15:09:32 –> 15:09:37
Dan Munro: is the meeting place between honesty and strategy.

15:09:33 –> 15:09:34
marni kinrys: Oh.

15:09:37 –> 15:09:41
Dan Munro: Um, so particularly when it comes to dating and attraction.

15:09:42 –> 15:09:48
Dan Munro: There’s what you might call the extreme end of raw honesty, which is every unfiltered thought and feeling comes out of your mouth.

15:09:49 –> 15:09:56
Dan Munro: Through to the other extreme end of total deception and manipulation, where everything’s a strategic move and there’s no authenticity.

15:09:53 –> 15:09:54
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:09:56 –> 15:10:00
Dan Munro: So obviously, the healthy place is somewhere in between.

15:09:59 –> 15:10:01
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:10:00 –> 15:10:05
Dan Munro: What are your thoughts on this idea of, like, how is a guy like to be himself and be honest?

15:10:05 –> 15:10:13
Dan Munro: While also implementing strategy, or tactics, or whatever you want to call it, without ending up compromising.

15:10:13 –> 15:10:27
marni kinrys: I also. So I call it honest with tact. Right? So it’s a well thought through honesty rather than I call it throwing up on a woman where you’re just dumping right dumping is.

15:10:13 –> 15:10:14
Dan Munro: They’re on it.

15:10:27 –> 15:10:42
marni kinrys: Lack of emotional regulation, it’s something… my son who just walked in the door, like, it’s something that he would do. He would just, like, throw up on me, tell me all of his emotions, everything that he’s feeling, which is… which is amazing. He’s pouring out his heart to me, he’s being vulnerable. Obviously, I’m not attracted to.

15:10:42 –> 15:10:54
marni kinrys: But after he came to me, and we talked, and we got to a place where he understood his emotions, and what he was thinking and feeling, and what he wanted, if he were to then explain that to somebody.

15:10:54 –> 15:11:10
marni kinrys: That would be honest with tact. So it’s a, it’s a composed way of being honest rather than just having a, you know, run of the muck, um, emotional tantrum with women. Although there is, there is something to.

15:11:10 –> 15:11:20
marni kinrys: blurting things out, right? So, I think it depends on what you are saying and relaying to women. If there is something like, you know what?

15:11:20 –> 15:11:39
marni kinrys: I’m just down for fun experiences right now, and I want to have amazing experiences with you, and I don’t want to lead you on, right? That’s… that’s being honest with a woman about where your intentions are, and that is completely rewarded by women, admired by women, **** from a female point of view, but.

15:11:39 –> 15:11:57
marni kinrys: There is another side where you do and can just blurt things out that is also incredibly attractive. And when I mean blurt things out, it means saying the things that you think are going to ruffle feathers, but could actually be very enjoyed by other people. So a lot of the guys that I work with.

15:11:57 –> 15:12:12
marni kinrys: They don’t want to say anything too risky, nothing too ******* nothing that, like, no ****** innuendo. They don’t want to say anything that can potentially hurt the other person’s feelings, even if it’s a playful tease. So they hold back and they filter.

15:12:12 –> 15:12:27
marni kinrys: everything that they say, which becomes this very muted down, watered down version of how they would actually like to represent themselves. So I am a fan of blurting things out, the things that are a bit risky in your head.

15:12:27 –> 15:12:44
marni kinrys: in terms of honesty in that way, those things can be freely spread out and played with, especially in the very beginning, so that men can see what women will actually take in. So, the guys that go through my program, I have them do this exercise that’s called.

15:12:44 –> 15:12:59
marni kinrys: I am ***** right? And there’s two parts to it. There’s one part where you look in the mirror for 10 days straight, and you just say, I’m ***** I’m ***** and you… I mean, there’s other exercises as well coupled with that to build up to that stage, but.

15:12:59 –> 15:13:14
marni kinrys: where they want to get to at the end is them really believing what they’re saying in the mirror, so that they don’t just say, I’m ***** and they question it. They say, I’m freaking ***** I know I’m ***** And then, the second part of the exercise is going out in public.

15:13:14 –> 15:13:29
marni kinrys: And asking women if they think they’re ***** which I know seems extremely crass or extremely disrespectful to a lot of men who might be listening. But the other side of that is that it’s extremely bold, extremely confident.

15:13:29 –> 15:13:34
marni kinrys: And on the flip side, what I know you are going to see is a lot of women who say.

15:13:34 –> 15:13:52
marni kinrys: Actually, you are kind of ***** You’ll see that they’re not offended by the statement. They’re not troubled by it. They don’t slap you because it’s inappropriate. So what it helps men do is realizing the things they can say and the things that can come out of their mouth that women actually enjoy participating in.

15:13:52 –> 15:14:07
marni kinrys: So, to answer… I know it’s a long-winded answer to your question, but there’s… there’s two sides of it. It’s like, when… when you have a value about yourself, or you want… you’re trying to explain to a woman who you are and where you’re at, that has to come from a more composed, well-thought.

15:14:07 –> 15:14:21
marni kinrys: place. But the flip side of blurting things out is that you can say more salacious things to women without having to filter that out to protect them and to protect yourself.

15:14:23 –> 15:14:26
Dan Munro: Yeah, this is my kind of topic.

15:14:26 –> 15:14:31
Dan Munro: Because one of the… like, a lot of the nice guys, one of their kind of chief…

15:14:31 –> 15:14:35
Dan Munro: I guess, pieces of resistance, is…

15:14:35 –> 15:14:45
Dan Munro: They think there’s no difference, there’s no nuance to this. It’s like overshare or play it safe. And there’s nothing but immense risk taking.

15:14:41 –> 15:14:42
marni kinrys: Yep.

15:14:45 –> 15:14:51
Dan Munro: or doing nothing at all, and they actually sort of hide behind this argument to some extent.

15:14:50 –> 15:14:52
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:14:51 –> 15:14:58
Dan Munro: And so what you’re, yeah, because it is. I remember the first time I did it, I almost threw up. I was so afraid.

15:14:52 –> 15:14:53
marni kinrys: Because it’s scary.

15:14:54 –> 15:14:56
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:14:57 –> 15:14:59
marni kinrys: Yeah, me too.

15:15:00 –> 15:15:05
Dan Munro: I think it’d be really helpful, and especially to attack some of the limiting beliefs.

15:15:05 –> 15:15:09
Dan Munro: To talk about some of this nuance, like, what is…

15:15:09 –> 15:15:13
Dan Munro: You know, I want your opinion on what’s the difference between.

15:15:13 –> 15:15:18
Dan Munro: sort of oversharing and puking on someone versus.

15:15:18 –> 15:15:25
Dan Munro: considered deep sharing and blurting in a bold, **** way.

15:15:25 –> 15:15:30
Dan Munro: So how does somebody differentiate the two so they can’t use the excuse that…

15:15:30 –> 15:15:43
marni kinrys: One you’re, one you’re apologetic for and one you’re not. That’s really the most simple way to, to, to lay it out. But if you want me to give you an actual example, it would be actually, there’s this, this text.

15:15:30 –> 15:15:31
Dan Munro: Wanted.

15:15:43 –> 15:15:49
marni kinrys: I could pull it up, but it was a text that one of my clients just had me analyze, so…

15:15:49 –> 15:16:04
marni kinrys: He had just met this woman on the street, he got her phone number, and he was so polite to her. He was like, oh, hello, this is X, Y, and Z. So nice to meet you today. It was great. I really love the shirt that you were wearing. It would be wonderful.

15:16:04 –> 15:16:20
marni kinrys: Um, if you and I could see each other again, end of text. Then he did a follow up text where he then said, um, you know, I know it might be too soon and maybe I should have waited a few days and act a little bit more cool, which I kind of like that statement of I could have acted more cool. That was.

15:16:20 –> 15:16:27
marni kinrys: like more vulnerable. But then he continued to apologize for wanting to ask.

15:16:27 –> 15:16:42
marni kinrys: her out and went on for a very long text afterwards. That to me is too much information to share because underneath it, he is apologizing for having desire. He’s apologizing for asking what he wants.

15:16:42 –> 15:16:51
marni kinrys: And he is apologizing for what he thinks she may be feeling before he actually knows what she’s feeling.

15:16:51 –> 15:17:11
marni kinrys: And to me, that is an emotional dump onto another person, because you’re putting so much onto that person that they may not know all of the things that he’s experiencing, but they can feel it immediately, and it feels like somebody has thrown up on you. It feels like you want to get away from it, you need to wash your hands, it’s icky, you want to close your phone down when you see it.

15:17:11 –> 15:17:16
marni kinrys: The other side to that, which is being vulnerable, right?

15:17:16 –> 15:17:22
marni kinrys: is something that can be very succinct. It was great meeting you the other day. I’d love to take you for a coffee. What are you doing on Friday?

15:17:22 –> 15:17:30
marni kinrys: That’s… that’s honesty as well. That is being vulnerable. And I know you’re talking about being more vulnerable with.

15:17:30 –> 15:17:38
marni kinrys: more serious things. But that can happen deeper into a conversation where you are honest.

15:17:38 –> 15:17:55
marni kinrys: about a situation. So let’s try to think of something, um, of a real situation. So it can be, uh, that you’re going through a divorce, and you’re still kind of in pain right now, right? So you’re talking to a woman, and you say, you know what, right now, I… I’m fresh out of a divorce.

15:17:55 –> 15:18:02
marni kinrys: But I’m excited for new experiences, and I’m excited to meet.

15:18:02 –> 15:18:08
marni kinrys: amazing women like you. But I want to be really honest with you, the space that I’m in right now.

15:18:08 –> 15:18:16
marni kinrys: Dominique Mendiola, I’m not in a space to be committed Dominique Mendiola, to somebody. I’m in a space of exploration.

15:18:16 –> 15:18:17
marni kinrys: And.

15:18:17 –> 15:18:23
marni kinrys: experiences, and I hope that you’re along for that ride, and if you’re not.

15:18:23 –> 15:18:25
marni kinrys: I completely understand that.

15:18:25 –> 15:18:35
marni kinrys: It’s from… you’re not apologizing for your wants, but you’re letting the other person know, this is the situation. Hop in or hop out, but I’m okay either way.

15:18:36 –> 15:18:40
Dan Munro: Yeah, that’s very much aligns with my take on it as well.

15:18:40 –> 15:18:44
Dan Munro: I might use the word shameless, to explain.

15:18:42 –> 15:18:53
marni kinrys: Shameless, yes, that’s a great… it’s shameless, exactly. There is no shame attached to it, because it’s you. It’s what you want. And they can say, great, I’m on board.

15:18:53 –> 15:19:10
marni kinrys: Or they can say, no, not for me. And then you part and you both don’t feel misled. You don’t feel like you’ve been puked on in any way. You understand what’s happening. The whole point of being honest, especially with tact, is clarity for both sides. So everybody can make.

15:19:10 –> 15:19:21
marni kinrys: an educated adult decision. And sometimes women may not take it well, even if you are the most authentic, the most honest, and the reason they’re not going to take it well is because they like you.

15:19:21 –> 15:19:30
marni kinrys: They like you a lot, and they don’t like what you’ve been honest about, and that is not on you, that is on them. Because if you’ve been honest the entire way.

15:19:30 –> 15:19:38
marni kinrys: and straightforward with them, you’ve done all that you can. That’s for her to sort out on her own, and it’s not for you to take care of as a man.

15:19:40 –> 15:19:43
Dan Munro: Yeah, there’s an irony there, which is…

15:19:43 –> 15:19:48
Dan Munro: The guy will over explain to avoid causing you to have a bad reaction.

15:19:48 –> 15:19:51
Dan Munro: And the over explaining itself is yuck.

15:19:51 –> 15:19:57
Dan Munro: Um, so there’s a kind of overcompensation for the fear of harassing.

15:19:55 –> 15:20:11
marni kinrys: Yes, but both of those are not honest explanation, right? Because they’re either giving lots of compliments, which is very misleading to women. Why are you complimenting so much if you don’t want to be with me, right? But if you just said.

15:20:11 –> 15:20:27
marni kinrys: Listen, I’m not feeling the attraction for you that I need to feel in order to move this to the next level. But I do think you’re absolutely amazing. I think you’re wonderful, but it’s just not what I want for a relationship that’s honest.

15:20:27 –> 15:20:44
marni kinrys: There, but there’s, and there’s no wiggle room there. But a lot of guys, what they do is they’ll say like 10 amazing things about her and they’ll say, but I, you know, this just isn’t the right time for me to be in a relationship, right? And then the woman walks away saying he’s afraid of commitment. He’s because you haven’t given her anything concrete to work with.

15:20:44 –> 15:20:52
marni kinrys: Or you have, but it’s misleading. And then later on down the road, when you’re in a new relationship 3 months later with somebody that you’re madly in love with.

15:20:52 –> 15:21:07
marni kinrys: she gets ****** off, because she’s like, wait a second! You totally misled me! You lied to me! You are in a place for… So, it’s just… that’s where it becomes very confusing for everybody. So, I think you can be even more attractive when you’re honest.

15:21:07 –> 15:21:20
marni kinrys: really honest and unapologetic and shameless. I love that word, shameless. And you can leave women better off than you found them when you act that way. And I hope that.

15:21:20 –> 15:21:28
marni kinrys: I hope that I’m still helping the guys who are listening to understand the fine line of where the difference is. One is you’re covering up.

15:21:28 –> 15:21:33
marni kinrys: One is you’re not covering up, but not giving.

15:21:33 –> 15:21:52
marni kinrys: too much unneeded information. I don’t find you attractive, I don’t like your mom, and therefore, I don’t think we should be together, right? That’s too far in the opposite direction. So it’s honest with tact. It’s, you’re freaking amazing, I’m not feeling the chemistry with you that I want to in order to go to the next level in a relationship.

15:21:52 –> 15:21:56
marni kinrys: And therefore I think we should stop seeing each other that is honest with tact.

15:21:57 –> 15:22:05
Dan Munro: We picked up on something I haven’t really thought of clearly before, which is any form of over-explaining is probably drifting into dishonesty.

15:22:05 –> 15:22:14
Dan Munro: Because it could be shorter, right? Like, honestly, it’s very concise. There’s one thing, I call it headlining, like, give them the headline of the article, and they’ve got the gist.

15:22:05 –> 15:22:07
marni kinrys: Yes!

15:22:07 –> 15:22:09
marni kinrys: Yes!

15:22:13 –> 15:22:15
marni kinrys: Yes!

15:22:15 –> 15:22:18
Dan Munro: Um, so that’s… that’s interesting, because…

15:22:18 –> 15:22:29
Dan Munro: A lot of guys will think that that’s what honesty is, this big, massive puke of, like, a huge amount of information, but that’s actually to cover up the small amount of information they actually need to share.

15:22:23 –> 15:22:24
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:22:28 –> 15:22:43
marni kinrys: Yeah, and if she wants, if she has more questions, she’ll ask them. And you can even say, like, do you have any questions? Do you, like, I want to help you be okay with this as well. Do you have any questions for me? And then you can answer them with tact.

15:22:43 –> 15:23:00
marni kinrys: Right? So that she can get everything that she needs as well. And sometimes she might ask a million questions, and maybe you can say, okay, let’s cut it down to three, right? So that it’s not that you’re there for an hour answering her questions, but you’re still being a kind person, a good man.

15:23:00 –> 15:23:01
marni kinrys: And you’re being considerate.

15:23:02 –> 15:23:11
Dan Munro: Yeah, and I absolutely believe that there is no conflict between being honest and compassionate. The two can.

15:23:07 –> 15:23:21
marni kinrys: No, not at all. But there is when you get into this other category of, I’ve stated my wants, and now, because you’re not okay with the honesty, I’m sticking around for way too long.

15:23:21 –> 15:23:37
marni kinrys: which is also false and misleading to that woman. So there, there is a certain point of cut off and this is only in the situation that I’m talking about where you break up with somebody and it’s not really what you’re looking for versus what they’re looking for.

15:23:37 –> 15:23:54
marni kinrys: It’s, you have to be honest, unapologetic, shameless. Um But also true to yourself, you can be compassionate and kind, but you, you can’t turn into a counselor and babysitter for a woman because she’s not ok with.

15:23:51 –> 15:23:52
Dan Munro: Hmm. Okay.

15:23:54 –> 15:23:56
marni kinrys: Your honesty.

15:23:57 –> 15:24:02
Dan Munro: Well, actually, that’s where I’d like to, not segue, but just transition to…

15:24:02 –> 15:24:05
Dan Munro: Honestly, when you do like them.

15:24:04 –> 15:24:06
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:24:05 –> 15:24:07
Dan Munro: Alright, um…

15:24:07 –> 15:24:12
Dan Munro: Because I think that’s probably where the really big struggle is.

15:24:12 –> 15:24:16
Dan Munro: And maybe we’ll start talking about the idea of flirting and so on.

15:24:16 –> 15:24:26
Dan Munro: But I remember… I did this myself, actually, to some extent, and I’ve seen a lot of my clients do this. When they first transition to honesty, they can get really serious.

15:24:26 –> 15:24:27
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:24:26 –> 15:24:37
Dan Munro: And honesty becomes like this almost robotic accuracy thing where everything is like, here is the exact experience I’m going through on the inside right now.

15:24:37 –> 15:24:43
Dan Munro: Almost like you’re talking to a neuroscientist trying to understand how your brain works.

15:24:41 –> 15:24:42
marni kinrys: Right.

15:24:43 –> 15:24:53
Dan Munro: Uh, and somebody who might have actually been a bit more flirty when they were more of a dishonest person kind of loses that romantic, ******* fun, playful edge.

15:24:52 –> 15:24:54
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:24:53 –> 15:24:57
Dan Munro: As they first start trying to, like, hone in on honesty.

15:24:57 –> 15:25:05
Dan Munro: So I’d love to hear some of your thoughts about where honesty, flirting, having fun.

15:25:05 –> 15:25:12
Dan Munro: the light hearted parts of connecting without straying into falseness.

15:25:12 –> 15:25:14
Dan Munro: Um…

15:25:14 –> 15:25:16
Dan Munro: Let’s get into it. What?

15:25:16 –> 15:25:30
marni kinrys: I know, because now we’re like, okay, but just don’t do this. It’s right, it’s like, it becomes, so it’s baby steps. So even what you said before, it’s like, first of all, you have to abandon this puking. So you abandon the puking, you get to honesty. So these, so it’s.

15:25:20 –> 15:25:21
Dan Munro: Yes.

15:25:30 –> 15:25:52
marni kinrys: So people who are listening, you don’t have to jump to being this master who can finesse everything. It is baby steps. So I really believe that the work that we’re doing is all about stages and training wheels. And then once you learn something, you throw away the training wheels. So I teach guys lines sometimes. I didn’t used to in the past because I was opposed to them.

15:25:52 –> 15:25:55
marni kinrys: But I do now know that you need something.

15:25:55 –> 15:26:11
marni kinrys: You need a base to work from and then you can start finessing and doing things on your own. So that’s why a lot of my coaching programs are the men work with our team of wing girls so they can have training wheels to practice with and then take away the training wheels and get instant feedback from the women.

15:26:11 –> 15:26:27
marni kinrys: So I, I do love that men go to the honest place because honesty is bold, right? It’s even if it’s said in a robotic logical way, I like you. I think you’re hot. I’d like to sleep with you, but that’s bold. It’s a very bold thing. So that’s the extreme that you want to get to and you want to utilize that.

15:26:28 –> 15:26:37
marni kinrys: So having that available to you and you being comfortable with it is a great place to be in. But then it’s about finessing it. It’s about…

15:26:37 –> 15:26:42
marni kinrys: the heartbeat monitor. So, you know, at a hospital, when you look.

15:26:40 –> 15:26:42
Dan Munro: Good.

15:26:42 –> 15:26:57
marni kinrys: at a monitor, right? So, you don’t want it to be flatlined, which is just the bold all the time, or just the nice guy all the time. You don’t want it to be, like, going, like, absolutely crazy, because that makes people insane, and that’s, that’s equivalent to the puking. But you want it.

15:26:57 –> 15:27:12
marni kinrys: to, like, go up, have high moments, lower moments, high moments. That’s a healthy heartbeat, right? You want to give a little bit of excitement, you want to have a little bit of uncertainty, excitement, uncertainty, level off, so that.

15:27:12 –> 15:27:29
marni kinrys: That person stays alive and that’s how you want to think about your interactions with women. So you can be honest and bold, you’re freaking ***** right? But then you lean back afterwards and you can go back to a normal conversation. You joke around, you have a connecting point where you talk about things that are more serious.

15:27:29 –> 15:27:36
marni kinrys: You tease the girl, you play around again, and then you go back to a bold moment where you make direct eye contact, look at her.

15:27:37 –> 15:27:49
marni kinrys: Hold tension for about 3 to 5 seconds, and back off again. So, as you graduate to these levels, you can learn how to bounce around with them. But flirting, playfulness is.

15:27:49 –> 15:27:54
marni kinrys: Absolutely needed. But it’s, it’s the next level of skill set to have.

15:27:54 –> 15:27:57
Dan Munro: Well, that’s what I’d love to talk to you about today is.

15:27:57 –> 15:27:59
Dan Munro: Because, you know, it’s funny.

15:28:00 –> 15:28:15
Dan Munro: You know, so often we have to sort of teach guys what looks like strategy, but it’s what they would do if all the insecurity went away. It would naturally be upbeats if they just thinking and did what they felt like it would go in out of intense.

15:28:08 –> 15:28:09
marni kinrys: Right.

15:28:10 –> 15:28:11
marni kinrys: Yeah!

15:28:13 –> 15:28:20
marni kinrys: Yeah, it’s, it is a, it is a skill set that is not taught in school. You’re told, don’t be funny.

15:28:20 –> 15:28:35
marni kinrys: Right? Don’t blurt out things. Don’t. We’re trained in so many ways to not do that behavior. And many of the guys that we’re talking to right now and that I talk to take that to heart. They have a parent at home that also doesn’t let them do that. Most likely a mother.

15:28:35 –> 15:28:40
marni kinrys: right? They have female teachers who also put them in their place.

15:28:40 –> 15:28:57
marni kinrys: And then they have whatever they’re born with that also says to them, this is not good for me to do. I don’t get what I want if I do this right. So there is this programming in place that tells you to shut up and not release this real version of yourself. So it is a skill.

15:28:57 –> 15:29:03
marni kinrys: skill set and a habit that you either create or needs to be created later in life.

15:29:03 –> 15:29:07
marni kinrys: And then once you can create this habit.

15:29:07 –> 15:29:22
marni kinrys: and own this skill set, it’s the most free place of all, because you do, as you just said, you realize, you’re like, oh, this is how I’ve always wanted to be. And I had that experience when I was 19 years old. I was in Auckland, New Zealand, and I was with.

15:29:22 –> 15:29:24
marni kinrys: my best friend, and.

15:29:24 –> 15:29:50
marni kinrys: She would walk into the hostel that we were staying at, and she would make friends with everybody in 2 seconds, and I wouldn’t, and I could not do it. I was the nice guy. I was the best friend. I was the wallflower. I added little jokes in here and there, but I wasn’t anybody of substance. There’s nothing for people to latch onto about me, and I would watch her and just say, what is it that she’s doing? How is she able to connect with all these people? And what she was able to.

15:29:50 –> 15:30:06
marni kinrys: To do was she was able to be free. I could tell there was no boundaries, there was no barriers for her conversation. She blurted things out, but she also made really good eye contact and listened to people. She asked them questions, she touched them freely, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t.

15:30:06 –> 15:30:11
marni kinrys: It was never too much. It was like this perfect balance that she either had naturally.

15:30:11 –> 15:30:26
marni kinrys: or had gained over time, and I realized that I wanted to have the same thing, and I started to work on my skill set, starting at the 1st baby step, which was me going out in the streets of Auckland and telling myself I have to approach 10 people.

15:30:26 –> 15:30:42
marni kinrys: And like I was 20 sorry, 19 at the time. So I was a cute girl, right? Not an intimidating older man or big, whatever it was. I, and I took 2.5 hours to approach 10 people because I was so nervous and all I had to do was say hi.

15:30:42 –> 15:30:46
marni kinrys: And I was so nervous and so uncomfortable, but…

15:30:46 –> 15:30:56
marni kinrys: doing that, and then along with the other things that I did afterwards to build up my personality, those were the things that allowed me to break out of that shell, and after about 3 months.

15:30:56 –> 15:31:11
marni kinrys: of doing different exercise that I created that are a part of all of my programs. I was able to act like her to be that free version of myself and how I thought of it and how I think of it now is that I’m allowed to talk to anybody.

15:31:11 –> 15:31:17
marni kinrys: I talk to everybody as if I’ve met them before, that they’re my friend. There is no barrier to entry.

15:31:17 –> 15:31:33
marni kinrys: If they don’t like what I’m doing, they can tell me they don’t like what I’m doing. So I don’t put any limitations onto myself and playfulness and teasing is a huge part of that. And again, long winded answer to your question, but it is a skill set that you learn step.

15:31:33 –> 15:31:44
marni kinrys: by step by step. Some people just need permission, and then they can turn that side of their personality on, because they already do that with their guy friends, now they just need to be able to do it with women. Other people have never had that skill set.

15:31:44 –> 15:31:54
marni kinrys: With anybody in their lives. So they need to learn baby steps about how to get to that place of being free and open and playful with other people.

15:31:56 –> 15:32:01
Dan Munro: I can’t get over the fact that I was probably walking down the same street approaching people at the same time.

15:32:00 –> 15:32:06
marni kinrys: I bet you you were. You totally were. I’m sure I approached you. And I’m sure you probably couldn’t say anything either.

15:32:03 –> 15:32:05
Dan Munro: There you go.

15:32:05 –> 15:32:08
Dan Munro: That’s so funny.

15:32:08 –> 15:32:10
Dan Munro: Yeah, like, this is…

15:32:11 –> 15:32:22
Dan Munro: Yeah, we have to learn almost to be what we would be if we didn’t get taught the opposite, like natural. We have to learn to be natural and free, which sounds like almost a contradiction, but.

15:32:16 –> 15:32:18
marni kinrys: Yes?

15:32:22 –> 15:32:24
Dan Munro: It’s kind of like, take a bit of time to do it.

15:32:22 –> 15:32:37
marni kinrys: It’s so hard to do. It’s so hard to break a thought pattern. It’s so hard to literally like change the lens that you view the world in because it’s you like at this point in time being a nice guy.

15:32:37 –> 15:32:53
marni kinrys: It’s who you are, right? And you have to defend who you are. That is just how human beings work. So to let go of that and to go into a space that is unknown and scary, that is really tough.

15:32:53 –> 15:33:08
marni kinrys: really difficult and challenging because you can’t see it yet. And that’s why you work with coaches like you, you work with coaches like me because we can help you see it in different ways and provide you a safe place to be able to explore it.

15:33:08 –> 15:33:24
marni kinrys: But sometimes for people, it just takes that one sentence or that one activity or that one feeling that they get when they do something that they’re like, oh, okay, now I see it. This is possible. I’ve been seeing it all wrong. But that’s hard. It’s really hard.

15:33:26 –> 15:33:31
Dan Munro: Well, this is what I want to get really into your expertise on.

15:33:31 –> 15:33:37
Dan Munro: This idea of flirting post hashtag me too flirting.

15:33:37 –> 15:33:38
Dan Munro: um…

15:33:39 –> 15:33:55
Dan Munro: We get these guys, they finally get into being honest, but they’re deadly serious the whole time. There’s no playfulness or fun to it. They might even be saying very bold things that are quite ***** but there’s that, like, monotone. They’re just bold and serious, and it can be intense.

15:33:55 –> 15:33:59
Dan Munro: When we start with basics, like, in your minds…

15:33:59 –> 15:34:04
Dan Munro: What’s the definition of flirting? Like, how would you separate that?

15:34:02 –> 15:34:19
marni kinrys: Adult play. Adult play is flirting. And I think that people think flirting means **** but it doesn’t. It just means adult play. And there are different levels of flirting. So my program called The F Formula teaches about the three different flavors.

15:34:19 –> 15:34:37
marni kinrys: three different phases of flirting, because there is a PG-13 level of flirting that you should be doing with every single person, and that was the main thing that I learned from my experiences in Auckland. That, like, I can flirt with a grocery store clerk, I can flirt with an old man, I can flirt with a woman. I’m really good at flirting with women.

15:34:37 –> 15:34:52
marni kinrys: So, and it’s okay because it just means being playful, right? It means bantering back and forth. It means joking around and slightly teasing people. And that’s something kids do on the playground and that I can do in my everyday life. And.

15:34:52 –> 15:35:04
marni kinrys: People like that and want it. Any time that I meet a new person right away, there’s a jab that I have for them. There’s something that starts off on a high note.

15:35:04 –> 15:35:26
marni kinrys: And a jokey note and a playful note. And that’s what sets all of my interactions. And that’s the way that you want to start your interactions. Not, hi, I’m Arnie, so nice to meet you. Well, I mean, yes, you can do that, absolutely. But that’s boring, right? I usually say my name five minutes into the conversation because I’m joking about something with the person that I’m interacting with.

15:35:26 –> 15:35:28
marni kinrys: Adult.

15:35:28 –> 15:35:44
marni kinrys: Play. That is the most basic way to think of it. You can take flirting to a more ****** level, and if you’re interested and attracted to a woman, you should be. And there’s seven flirting tools that you can use to do that. But in the very beginning, it’s just play.

15:35:46 –> 15:35:54
Dan Munro: I think that’s how I started as well. Like, one of the things I observed when I was looking at really confident, really natural guys.

15:35:54 –> 15:35:56
Dan Munro: Is there was no.

15:35:56 –> 15:36:03
Dan Munro: There was no categories of people for them. They behaved the same with everybody. That was one of the first major things I…

15:36:01 –> 15:36:03
marni kinrys: Yeah!

15:36:03 –> 15:36:09
Dan Munro: that was so different to me. I had a different persona for everybody. Um, but that flirtatiousness, yeah.

15:36:09 –> 15:36:14
Dan Munro: They would be at a rest home and flirting with both the nurse and their grandmother.

15:36:13 –> 15:36:15
marni kinrys: Yes. Oh my God. Yes.

15:36:14 –> 15:36:17
Dan Munro: Mm-hmm. And that just have that kind of…

15:36:17 –> 15:36:23
Dan Munro: playfulness with everyone. There’s a guy, there’s a silly guy on social media, Zach Justice.

15:36:23 –> 15:36:26
Dan Munro: And he’s… Perfect.

15:36:23 –> 15:36:33
marni kinrys: Oh, is he the one who just flirts, and he, like, no matter what? He’s coming onto my podcast. I’m having him on my podcast. That’s so funny you said that, yeah. He’s great at it.

15:36:26 –> 15:36:29
Dan Munro: Yeah, it is the movie.

15:36:29 –> 15:36:31
Dan Munro: How is it?

15:36:32 –> 15:36:33
Dan Munro: Got it.

15:36:33 –> 15:36:42
Dan Munro: Yeah, in my mind, he is the absolute role model of what you’re talking about, which is he’s anyone, everyone, all the time.

15:36:38 –> 15:36:39
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:36:42 –> 15:36:46
Dan Munro: Um, and you can just see that he’s just…

15:36:46 –> 15:36:54
Dan Munro: Nobody’s ever uncomfortable with it, because this isn’t pedestalling someone or whatever. He’s just having fun.

15:36:48 –> 15:36:49
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:36:54 –> 15:36:58
Dan Munro: So it’d be really interesting to hear his take on this as well.

15:36:58 –> 15:37:00
Dan Munro: I think…

15:36:59 –> 15:37:11
marni kinrys: And I know for some guys, sorry to interrupt you, but I know for some guys, they do look at people who are playful all the time and they can look at them and say, that’s exhausting. And I get that.

15:37:11 –> 15:37:26
marni kinrys: Right? Because for some people who are introverts, not shy, but introverts, it can be exhausting to be like that. And what you and I are both saying is that you’re not like a comedian, and you’re not performing all the time. It’s just the fact that you.

15:37:26 –> 15:37:41
marni kinrys: can allow yourself to be open and playful. Things don’t have to be super serious, they don’t have to be tight, and you’re not holding back the things that you want to say, right? It’s just, there’s a lightness to you. And you can be light and an introvert, and you can be light.

15:37:41 –> 15:37:45
marni kinrys: And an extrovert as well, right?

15:37:45 –> 15:38:00
marni kinrys: So it doesn’t have to be as exhausting as it may seem from this conversation. It can happen for every single person at the level that they’re comfortable with. And there are going to be women as well who don’t want this like joke, joke, joke, joke, joke person.

15:38:00 –> 15:38:05
marni kinrys: but who like to be teased just a little bit every once in a while.

15:38:05 –> 15:38:09
marni kinrys: So don’t, don’t let our conversation intimidate you.

15:38:09 –> 15:38:16
Dan Munro: Well, maybe we could just do a quick practical check in here. So staying at that sort of first level of non-sexual flirting.

15:38:16 –> 15:38:25
Dan Munro: If you imagine the person listening right now is, like, one of those people who’s always been very serious, and the idea of flirt and playfulness is just, like, foreign language to them.

15:38:24 –> 15:38:26
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:38:25 –> 15:38:32
Dan Munro: What’s like a practical tip to help them see the opportunity for this playfulness here?

15:38:32 –> 15:38:39
marni kinrys: Okay, so I’m going to pull something up for you. Hold on, just bear with me for one second.

15:38:39 –> 15:38:46
marni kinrys: Because it’s a really good resource that I want you to give to your guys. If you’re if you’re open to it, you don’t have to.

15:38:46 –> 15:38:48
marni kinrys: Where are the…

15:38:49 –> 15:38:50
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:38:51 –> 15:38:53
marni kinrys: Okay, we have openers.

15:38:53 –> 15:38:54
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:38:55 –> 15:38:57
marni kinrys: So do you mind if I share?

15:38:57 –> 15:38:59
marni kinrys: my screen.

15:38:58 –> 15:39:00
Dan Munro: Thank you. Yeah. Yes, sir.

15:39:00 –> 15:39:01
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:39:03 –> 15:39:08
marni kinrys: Okay, so this is quite large, so hold on.

15:39:08 –> 15:39:09
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:39:10 –> 15:39:11
marni kinrys: Okay.

15:39:11 –> 15:39:12
marni kinrys: Can you see this?

15:39:12 –> 15:39:14
Dan Munro: Yep, totally.

15:39:13 –> 15:39:28
marni kinrys: So these are different flirting techniques and this is, these are things that you can do with anybody. And, and again, this is just to get your brain working. There’s about 20 more different flirting techniques you used to be in the pickup artist world. So you, you know about all of these, but they’re just different, different ways.

15:39:25 –> 15:39:26
Dan Munro: Right.

15:39:28 –> 15:39:33
marni kinrys: to think about interacting with people. And you can choose one of these, and just.

15:39:33 –> 15:39:42
marni kinrys: start using them once or twice in conversation with people, right? So, one of my favorite ones that is actually not on here.

15:39:42 –> 15:39:50
marni kinrys: Well, it’s kind of the disqualifier, but it’s the disagreement, which I find to be an easy transition where you disagree.

15:39:50 –> 15:39:59
marni kinrys: with a person that you’re interacting with within the 1st 2 to 3 exchanges, but you disagree with a smile on your face.

15:39:59 –> 15:40:15
marni kinrys: And in a playful tone so that it’s not too intense, right? But here are other ones as well. You can do push pull. So saying things like, you seem very cute. Too bad I’m actually into brunettes. On the outside, you seem very sweet, but I can tell there was a gangster side to you.

15:40:15 –> 15:40:31
marni kinrys: You can do a playful tease. Feisty. I like it. You’re very picky, huh? You’re cocky as ***** And we don’t have to read all of these, but these are just different ways and styles to interact with people. And if you can choose.

15:40:31 –> 15:40:41
marni kinrys: one of those to play around with. I wouldn’t actually choose that brunette one that I said before, so erase that one from your memory, because I actually don’t like that one, and we need to switch that, but…

15:40:41 –> 15:40:52
marni kinrys: Um, if you can choose one of the styles and just say, okay, today I am going to… I’m going to do a cold read on somebody, or I’m going to disagree, right?

15:40:52 –> 15:41:02
marni kinrys: And you use that once or twice in a conversation, and couple it with playing around with your tonality, and having a little smirk on your face.

15:41:02 –> 15:41:07
marni kinrys: and see how that lands with others. That’s your first step into playfulness.

15:41:07 –> 15:41:17
marni kinrys: Right? That’s the baby step into playfulness. And then you can be like, oh, that actually landed well, and that felt good for me to do, or that felt horrible. Let’s continue practicing until it feels better.

15:41:17 –> 15:41:20
marni kinrys: But that’s how you baby step into doing these things.

15:41:21 –> 15:41:34
Dan Munro: I really like the disagreement one, because a lot of the guys I work with who are transitioning into honesty, they’ll seriously disagree whenever it comes up that, you know, I’m gonna be really direct, I’ll be confrontational if I need to.

15:41:29 –> 15:41:31
marni kinrys: Oh, right.

15:41:34 –> 15:41:39
Dan Munro: And if they just smiled at the same time as doing it, it would change the tone of the whole thing.

15:41:38 –> 15:41:56
marni kinrys: Oh, 100%, yeah. So in my F formula, the whole program starts off by teaching about the seven flirting tools that you have, which I’m going to totally ***** these up, but the flirting tools are your smirk, your eye contact, your voice tonality, your touch, your mindset. I forget the other two now completely, but.

15:41:39 –> 15:41:40
Dan Munro: Yes.

15:41:56 –> 15:42:07
marni kinrys: You’ll have to go check out that formula if you want to know the other 2. But but those are your tools to use, because you can’t pull off playfulness if you don’t use.

15:41:58 –> 15:41:59
Dan Munro: Yeah. Okay.

15:42:00 –> 15:42:02
Dan Munro: Thank you.

15:42:07 –> 15:42:12
marni kinrys: those tools, right? Because it’s not playful if you’re saying you look awful as a blonde.

15:42:13 –> 15:42:28
marni kinrys: Right. That’s horrible. That’s like an insult to somebody. I mean, I wouldn’t actually say to say that in a playful tone. But if there was something along those lines like, oh yeah, I’m not into the politics that you’re talking about. Seems crazy to me. But, and you say it really seriously.

15:42:28 –> 15:42:43
marni kinrys: that’s an insult. But if you say it with, like, a lighter face, they don’t take it as aggressively, and you can go somewhere from there. Again, those are two pretty extreme statements, but they’re lightened up by the tools of.

15:42:43 –> 15:42:52
marni kinrys: face, of eye contact, of voice tonality. That’s the thing that expresses to the person that I’m not being so serious with what I’m saying.

15:42:53 –> 15:42:58
Dan Munro: Yeah, this is actually a video of yours I was watching before this call. You know, talking about…

15:42:57 –> 15:42:59
marni kinrys: Oh, which one?

15:42:58 –> 15:43:02
Dan Munro: There’s one of the most recent ones about, where’s the line?

15:43:02 –> 15:43:04
marni kinrys: Oh, yes!

15:43:04 –> 15:43:14
Dan Munro: And basically you’re saying it’s how you say it. Like you can say, yeah. And I remember when I was going through my first, when I was going through the phase of like practicing being really shameless.

15:43:07 –> 15:43:09
marni kinrys: Yeah, it’s how you say it.

15:43:14 –> 15:43:24
Dan Munro: I said stuff that you should get canceled for, and murdered for, perhaps, but if you say it in a shameless way where you clearly care about the other person, you’re just having fun.

15:43:24 –> 15:43:25
Dan Munro: Aye.

15:43:25 –> 15:43:35
Dan Munro: you could say things that I’d walk away going, I can’t believe I was allowed to say that. But I know that, had I said it in just a slight… even in an apologetic tone, I would have creeped them out completely, and so on.

15:43:29 –> 15:43:30
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:43:35 –> 15:43:36
marni kinrys: Yep.

15:43:36 –> 15:43:39
Dan Munro: of ownership. But yeah, I like that.

15:43:40 –> 15:43:48
Dan Munro: I think we do sometimes have to take it to a very practical level, because there are guys who, like, the word ‘flirting’ makes no sense. They don’t know what…

15:43:46 –> 15:44:01
marni kinrys: It’s no, it makes no sense to them. Well, because it made no sense to me either, right? Because for flirting, I used to think, oh, that’s ******* right? That’s extreme. That’s like, no, no, I don’t want to flirt. I’m not allowed to flirt at work. If I get, if I flirt here, I get me too. And.

15:44:01 –> 15:44:17
marni kinrys: it… if you dial it back to what it really is, it is just adult play. It’s being playful with other individuals, and that, I think, is palatable for people, because that they can start to understand, and then you can start to escalate your flirting.

15:44:17 –> 15:44:25
marni kinrys: once you have intention behind it, you’re like, oh, okay, now I’m being playful with you, and I like what I’m seeing on the other end.

15:44:25 –> 15:44:34
marni kinrys: Now I want this to be something more, so let’s escalate it a little bit. Let me touch a little bit more, let me make a little bit more lingering eye contact, let me…

15:44:34 –> 15:44:49
marni kinrys: joke around and be playful about the fact that you have a crush on me, right? To see if there is anything there, to slowly escalate it up the ladder, and then you can get to a way more ****** level, but at the very beginning, it’s just playfulness.

15:44:50 –> 15:45:00
Dan Munro: Well, this is a good point, because my issue… I didn’t have a problem being playful non-sexually. I was… I always tell people I was Chandler from Friends, like, everything was…

15:44:59 –> 15:45:02
marni kinrys: Right. You could banter like crazy. Right.

15:45:00 –> 15:45:07
Dan Munro: Yeah, I was really good at it. Very good at self-deprecating humor, the kind of stuff that, like, nobody’s gonna be offended by.

15:45:07 –> 15:45:13
Dan Munro: my biggest challenge was to take that energy into the ****** realm. Like, I felt like I hit a wall.

15:45:13 –> 15:45:23
Dan Munro: Um, when anything might cross over and be interpreted as ******* it felt like I just hit a block in my head, and that was one of the hardest transitions.

15:45:21 –> 15:45:22
marni kinrys: Right.

15:45:24 –> 15:45:31
Dan Munro: What? Let’s imagine now that the person listening is like, yeah, I can have a joke with people, banter with my friends and everything.

15:45:31 –> 15:45:37
Dan Munro: But, like, hashtag me too, I just feel like this harassment line, I’m just too scared to even talk.

15:45:35 –> 15:45:46
marni kinrys: Who is gonna harass? If you’re thinking about getting in trouble for harassing, you’re not gonna be the harasser. It’s the people who don’t think about it, who are like, no, I’m just gonna go after what I want, I’m.

15:45:46 –> 15:46:06
marni kinrys: what you want. That’s me, too. It’s when you don’t see what the other person is open to. It’s you’re being playful, and they’re giving you one word answers. You’re being playful ********* and they’re looking around the room and trying to find it out. And you can’t. That’s when you have blind spots. It’s not about the things that you say. It’s about not taking in another person’s.

15:46:06 –> 15:46:21
marni kinrys: reactions and responses to what you’re saying, and continuing to push when they may not be overtly saying, I’m not into this, but they’re not engaging in what you’re engaging with. So being playful is a two-way street.

15:46:21 –> 15:46:37
marni kinrys: And you can’t escalate it if the person isn’t playing back with you. So you get Me Too’d when you keep playing and they’re not participating. So that’s, that should be an easy thing to be able to figure out. Oh, okay, I’ve, I’ve had four playful comments and she’s not smiling.

15:46:37 –> 15:46:46
marni kinrys: She has her arms crossed. That’s not participation. So you won’t get Me Too’d if you start noticing she’s not engaging with you.

15:46:47 –> 15:46:52
Dan Munro: That’s interesting. It was quite ironic, and I see this in others now.

15:46:52 –> 15:46:55
Dan Munro: What I felt was risky was still very safe.

15:46:54 –> 15:47:10
marni kinrys: Oh, oh, exactly. But the thing is, that’s why, that’s why blurting out and doing those things and, like, taking these risks and asking the question of, do you think I’m ***** Like, that gets you to stretch, because you’re like, oh, I can say these things, and this is allowed for me to say. And really.

15:46:55 –> 15:46:56
Dan Munro: So.

15:46:56 –> 15:46:58
Dan Munro: Like Michael and Chris.

15:47:10 –> 15:47:13
marni kinrys: The playfulness when it becomes.

15:47:14 –> 15:47:26
marni kinrys: attraction, when it becomes, I’m interested, it literally can be using that honesty in the playfulness, right? Where you’re like, oh, no, but I’m totally into you, can’t you see that? And you can say it.

15:47:26 –> 15:47:34
marni kinrys: with a smile on your face and a different tone, right? And that’s escalating it, because no matter what, you’re gonna get a reaction from that.

15:47:34 –> 15:47:44
marni kinrys: It’s either a I’m going to shut this down reaction of now I’m going to take the playfulness away or I’m going to play back. I might not say I like you too.

15:47:44 –> 15:47:58
marni kinrys: I’m gonna joke around and say, oh, you wish I liked you. You wish I felt that way, right? But I’m engaging. That is saying, I’m in this as well. This is a green light, let’s keep going more. Right? And then you could even take the flirting.

15:47:58 –> 15:48:01
marni kinrys: into a non-playful space.

15:48:01 –> 15:48:04
marni kinrys: Where you say, no, I think you’re hot.

15:48:04 –> 15:48:12
marni kinrys: Oh, I’m totally attracted to you. And there’s the honesty, like that heart monitor, right? And that’s the high point. And you make eye contact.

15:48:13 –> 15:48:23
marni kinrys: And then you lean back afterwards, and you go, but that’s okay, you can’t get me anyway. Right? And there it goes back to the playfulness. So you can slowly inject honesty.

15:48:23 –> 15:48:40
marni kinrys: into that playfulness, and then see her reaction, and that’s what gets it to slowly escalate. And you don’t have to slowly escalate it up, but that is a way to do it that doesn’t feel so overwhelming and intrusive. There’s other people who can go right for the jugular at the beginning.

15:48:40 –> 15:48:49
marni kinrys: Right? Who can jump right into it. Because they’ve practiced for a long time, and they know that it’s allowed, accepted, and something that they can pull off.

15:48:51 –> 15:48:59
Dan Munro: Yeah, I think that’s what I struggled with when I was younger, is watching the other guys do it, not realizing they built up to that. They didn’t just jump off the cliff, they figured.

15:48:56 –> 15:48:57
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:48:58 –> 15:49:18
marni kinrys: I know that’s the hard… that is the hard thing. When you are watching other people do it, you’re like, I can never do that. I can barely say hello to a woman that I’m attracted to. So it’s like that… it’s so far from where you’re at, but at least you know what you’re aiming for, and that you can get there. And if there is an explanation to you of.

15:49:18 –> 15:49:21
marni kinrys: I’ve been practicing for two years. I’m now here?

15:49:21 –> 15:49:36
marni kinrys: we’re gonna get you to there, which I know is what you teach in your coaching and what I teach in my coaching, then it’s more palatable, hopefully, for the guys, and they’ll learn that they get there through… maybe not… I mean, I call it baby steps, because that is what makes it less overwhelming for me.

15:49:36 –> 15:49:49
marni kinrys: But that may be upsetting for guys to hear, they’re like, I have to go through baby steps, it’s gonna take forever. It’s just steps, just like with learning piano. You are learning a skill set now, so it’s going to take time. Some people go through it really fast, some people…

15:49:49 –> 15:49:56
marni kinrys: It can take a longer time if they want to work on it for longer and really hone in on what they’re doing.

15:49:56 –> 15:50:11
Dan Munro: No, I think a lot of people would be relieved to hear those baby steps, because, like, guys I’ve spoken to about this, they feel like you have to take this big leap where you go, okay, now that I’m ready to flirt, I’ve got to throw my career on the line with the next sentence out of my mouth.

15:50:11 –> 15:50:17
Dan Munro: As opposed to, like, what I love is your advice there, which is just pay attention to their reaction.

15:50:17 –> 15:50:18
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:50:17 –> 15:50:26
Dan Munro: If you’re not seeing a ******* friendly wants to play reaction, then just back down.

15:50:23 –> 15:50:25
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:50:25 –> 15:50:33
marni kinrys: Then you stop and you go back and you go to connection mode again. Oh, you don’t want to play? Okay, then we’re going to have a real conversation. I’m going to say, okay, so tell me about you.

15:50:33 –> 15:50:50
marni kinrys: What was the first thing that you did when you were 12 years old? Like you can go back into connection mode, into a safer, non playful space and then work back up to the playfulness, right? You can rebuild. It’s just recalibrating. It’s okay, you’re not ready to jump to the next phase yet.

15:50:50 –> 15:50:57
marni kinrys: Let’s go back to general flirtation, PG level flirtation and connection to get you more comfortable with it.

15:50:57 –> 15:51:06
Dan Munro: And it will be uncomfortable. Like when I was going through it, I remember just one interaction in my head now is I was actually just texting a girl and.

15:51:06 –> 15:51:15
Dan Munro: my flatmate had a girl over, and they’re, like, making out on the couch, and I said something to her, like, Oh, you want to come and compete with them?

15:51:15 –> 15:51:24
Dan Munro: And she’s just like, no, thanks. I’m like, okay, I’m gonna back down a bit. And I got, like, there’s a lot of times like that where it’s just like, oh, okay. But then once I sort of went.

15:51:23 –> 15:51:27
marni kinrys: Yeah. And you quit. You quit, right? You’re like, oh, no.

15:51:26 –> 15:51:28
Dan Munro: Yep.

15:51:27 –> 15:51:28
marni kinrys: Yep.

15:51:28 –> 15:51:33
Dan Munro: But once I started to learn, like, as long as after that, I just go, okay, that’s cool, and just keep going.

15:51:33 –> 15:51:40
Dan Munro: There’s no me too. They just went like, that’s too far for what we’re going to have. Okay. And then he just ends.

15:51:38 –> 15:51:40
marni kinrys: Yeah.

15:51:40 –> 15:51:47
marni kinrys: The second that you meet to yourself, meaning you kind of acknowledge or you put that label onto it.

15:51:47 –> 15:51:52
marni kinrys: it kind of… not that it justifies it to the other person, because I’m not trying to say that.

15:51:52 –> 15:52:05
marni kinrys: like, what you said may not have been appropriate. I’m just saying it hasn’t reached that level yet. So, like, a lot of guys who struggle with approaching anxiety, they’ll talk about how they go up to this woman, they say something, right? And then the woman looks at them.

15:51:57 –> 15:51:58
Dan Munro: Yeah.

15:52:05 –> 15:52:16
marni kinrys: And doesn’t say anything back. And they’re like, oh, that’s a rejection. And then they back away. And then they’re, like, apologetic, and they’re like, I failed, I’ve been rejected. And they go away.

15:52:16 –> 15:52:31
marni kinrys: You got her attention, but she’s not going to suddenly take over the conversation because she doesn’t know you. She didn’t have the intention of walking up to you and wanting to start a conversation. You did, which means it’s your responsibility. So you got to engage a little bit more. You have to do.

15:52:31 –> 15:52:43
marni kinrys: 75% of the conversation in the beginning, and then slowly, it will transition over. If it doesn’t, and continues at 75%, then that’s a sign to not continue. But her looking at you is the first step.

15:52:43 –> 15:52:48
marni kinrys: Now you gotta keep going. It’s not the first rejection, it’s just the first step.

15:52:48 –> 15:52:49
marni kinrys: So it’s…

15:52:48 –> 15:52:50
Dan Munro: Absolutely.

15:52:50 –> 15:52:56
marni kinrys: it’s the same thing in this. Like, I love that you… something out at you afterwards.

15:52:56 –> 15:53:00
Dan Munro: Hold on, you cut out a little bit there. You just come back in.

15:53:00 –> 15:53:02
marni kinrys: Oh, shoot, sorry.

15:53:02 –> 15:53:06
marni kinrys: Is it my headset? Is it better now?

15:53:04 –> 15:53:08
Dan Munro: No, no, it was just the signal. It was the Wi-Fi signal, I think.

15:53:06 –> 15:53:08
marni kinrys: Or a second?

15:53:08 –> 15:53:09
Dan Munro: um…

15:53:11 –> 15:53:23
Dan Munro: Yeah, there was… I think that was one of the big learnings for me, the difference between tension and a red light. They’re not the same thing, but I used to think any tension was a red light, so I’d approach a girl very boldly.

15:53:21 –> 15:53:23
marni kinrys: Oh.

15:53:23 –> 15:53:28
Dan Munro: And she’d stare at me, and I’d be like, oh, okay, well, sorry. Not realising, like…

15:53:26 –> 15:53:32
marni kinrys: I’ve got to move on now. You’re like, I just did it. I just built the tension.

15:53:28 –> 15:53:33
Dan Munro: Yeah. And in reality, she was like, oh, you know? Yeah.

15:53:32 –> 15:53:48
marni kinrys: Tension is, like, go-go juice. Like, you should be thriving for tension. You shouldn’t be thriving for hate or discomfort, or I’m trying to think of other labels to put onto it, but, like, tension? Ugh, tension’s, like, the best thing in the entire world. That’s where flirting lives. That’s where you want it to be.

15:53:48 –> 15:53:52
marni kinrys: Like, when I had tension from men.

15:53:52 –> 15:53:54
marni kinrys: Who didn’t need to fill the space.

15:53:54 –> 15:54:02
marni kinrys: And I didn’t know what to say. Oh, that rush of dopamine or serotonin, I don’t even know what was hitting my way, but.

15:54:02 –> 15:54:07
marni kinrys: was phenomenal. Like, that’s what you want to get somebody to feel on the other end.

15:54:08 –> 15:54:16
Dan Munro: Yeah, I think… and that’s the risk you have to take, is you’re going to feel like it’s a red light, but I always tell guys, like, does it look like they want to leave?

15:54:16 –> 15:54:20
Dan Munro: If the answer is no, then that’s tension. Looks like they want to leave.

15:54:16 –> 15:54:17
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:54:18 –> 15:54:21
marni kinrys: Oh, that’s good. That’s good.

15:54:21 –> 15:54:22
marni kinrys: Yes.

15:54:21 –> 15:54:29
Dan Munro: Um, because that’s, that’s the easier way, like, if a girl’s just staring at you, I mean, make a space for her to leave. If she stays there, then…

15:54:28 –> 15:54:44
marni kinrys: And even, this is where honesty comes in, in the very beginning, where you can say, okay, so I’m new to this. So, right, you can be honest and just say, so, like, you’re still engaged, right? You want me to continue talking? With, like, a smile on your face afterwards? Like, that’s where this honesty.

15:54:29 –> 15:54:30
Dan Munro: it…

15:54:32 –> 15:54:33
Dan Munro: Hmm.

15:54:44 –> 15:54:47
marni kinrys: can come out because you’re really saying, okay.

15:54:47 –> 15:55:04
marni kinrys: You, I’ve engaged you now. I don’t really know what to do next, but it’s, it’s like I, I’m trying to suss out what’s going on here. So like you are into what I have to say. You, you can say these things if you say it in a certain tone with a smile on your face, that’s endearing and adorable. So you can use.

15:55:04 –> 15:55:20
marni kinrys: The honesty with trying to figure out what have we got going on here, right? Is this a green light for me to keep talking or is this a get the **** away from me kind of, kind of look that you’re giving to me. And it depends on how bold you wanna be, but you can, you can use that to progress the conversation.

15:55:20 –> 15:55:27
marni kinrys: And add in some fun, playful interaction as well.

15:55:27 –> 15:55:32
Dan Munro: Yeah, I just think it’d be so bold to say something like that, to be like…

15:55:32 –> 15:55:37
Dan Munro: I’m not so good at reading people. Am I seeing… are they mad at me, or is this ****** tension? Which one is it?

15:55:33 –> 15:55:35
marni kinrys: Yeah!

15:55:36 –> 15:55:42
marni kinrys: Right, exactly. Or is this like keep going because you don’t know? Yeah, which I think is adorable.

15:55:39 –> 15:55:40
Dan Munro: Yeah, yeah.

15:55:42 –> 15:55:48
Dan Munro: Yeah, that’s really powerful. I’ve actually got some questions from my audience.

15:55:47 –> 15:55:53
marni kinrys: Oh gosh, yes, yes, yes, yes. I do, I do have to get off in about 10 minutes though.

15:55:49 –> 15:55:50
Dan Munro: Yeah, I posted the…

15:55:52 –> 15:55:56
Dan Munro: All right. We’ll whip through. We may have actually answered a couple already.

15:55:53 –> 15:55:55
marni kinrys: Is that OK? OK.

15:55:57 –> 15:56:04
Dan Munro: This one was actually just a good continuation from the perspective of being in a relationship.

15:56:04 –> 15:56:13
Dan Munro: What is your take on the importance of continuing to flirt and how that might develop over time in the relationship?

15:56:13 –> 15:56:21
marni kinrys: I mean, it makes me sad that I even have to answer this, to be honest, because it should always continue, right?

15:56:18 –> 15:56:19
Dan Munro: Good.

15:56:21 –> 15:56:36
marni kinrys: a flirting doesn’t stop once you get the girl. And the reason that, you know, it kind of makes me sad to hear is because I myself have been married for… oh, married, I guess, for 16, but with my husband for 22 years now.

15:56:36 –> 15:56:50
marni kinrys: And we’ve had periods of time where it has stopped, and it is the saddest experience, the most lonely experience for both of us, because I know for me, I felt unfeminine, unseen.

15:56:51 –> 15:57:05
marni kinrys: not attractive anymore, and then I… I turned that into tension, animosity, hatred, even towards my husband. Luckily, we’re at a… an amazing place now, where the flirting is back, but…

15:57:05 –> 15:57:21
marni kinrys: That was, you know, a horrible time period, and I have many, many girlfriends who also experienced that, and this is from their point of view, that they say, you know, oh, once we had kids, or once we got married, they stopped flirting with me, and then…

15:57:22 –> 15:57:33
marni kinrys: it all goes away. You have to be making a woman feel feminine continuously in order for her to want to give back to you. When a woman is lit up and feels feminine, that’s when she is…

15:57:34 –> 15:57:44
marni kinrys: the most caring, loving partner in the entire world. When you take that away from her, because you’re focusing on other things, which I understand can happen.

15:57:44 –> 15:57:59
marni kinrys: it’s to the detriment of you. It should be the number one priority, is continuing to have her feel feminine. And I know that that comes with its own challenges, and that can be a whole longer conversation that we can have another time. Um, but yeah, when you remove.

15:57:59 –> 15:58:05
marni kinrys: That flirting and that having her feel feminine, it’s the start of death to a relationship.

15:58:06 –> 15:58:11
Dan Munro: I’ve never thought about this before, but that actually might be one of the…

15:58:11 –> 15:58:19
Dan Munro: single greatest things to focus on with the… to manage the health of the relationship? Like, is it still happening, or isn’t it? Like, it’s kind of deal-breaker.

15:58:16 –> 15:58:17
marni kinrys: Yes?

15:58:18 –> 15:58:34
marni kinrys: Absolutely, absolutely. And then, you know, if, if the flirting isn’t being had on the other side, then there’s a conversation to have. I have a lot of guys who buy my program, the F formula, because their marriage has fallen flat and they try to use flirting.

15:58:34 –> 15:58:41
marni kinrys: flirting to bring the relationship back to life, but typically at the point that they’re at.

15:58:41 –> 15:58:46
marni kinrys: Jen Shang, flirting only makes a woman angrier because it has not existed for so long.

15:58:45 –> 15:58:47
Dan Munro: Hmm. To.

15:58:46 –> 15:58:57
marni kinrys: Right? So she’s so angry at that point, and feeling so unfeminine and unseen, even though she’s been screaming to be seen in some way for a long period of time, that.

15:58:57 –> 15:59:14
marni kinrys: Flirting with her only makes her more upset because it makes her feel more unseen, right? That she’s like, you’re going to start flirting with me? You want to try to have *** now? And I literally can’t even look at you without wanting to jab your eyes out. So there has to be more communication that happens. I have a whole.

15:59:14 –> 15:59:30
marni kinrys: Program, um, called why my wife won’t sleep with me anymore that teaches men about why this is happening and how to rebuild it. Cause you have to rebuild that connection first and then flirting can not only be welcomed, but is like wanted.

15:59:30 –> 15:59:32
marni kinrys: And then after the connection happens first.

15:59:32 –> 15:59:37
marni kinrys: So, yes, if you maintain that flirting, absolutely, and it doesn’t go away.

15:59:38 –> 15:59:47
marni kinrys: That should be the number one focus for you on your relationship. But if that does go away, then communication and connection has to happen again, and then the flirting can be welcomed.

15:59:49 –> 15:59:54
Dan Munro: Yeah, I’d say all my sort of favorite couples that I can think of off the top of my head, they tease each other.

15:59:53 –> 15:59:57
marni kinrys: Oh, all the time. Yeah, I love it.

15:59:55 –> 15:59:57
Dan Munro: I don’t think.

15:59:57 –> 16:00:04
Dan Munro: A couple of other questions. They may not even relate to what we’ve been talking about, but it’s just guys who know you and they wanted to ask.

16:00:03 –> 16:00:05
marni kinrys: Yeah, yeah.

16:00:05 –> 16:00:13
Dan Munro: One is about this idea of women struggle to respect a man that they can manipulate.

16:00:13 –> 16:00:14
marni kinrys: Okay.

16:00:16 –> 16:00:21
Dan Munro: This guy’s basically asking, do I have to try and, like, defeat…

16:00:21 –> 16:00:24
Dan Munro: The woman, as in, like, not…

16:00:24 –> 16:00:32
Dan Munro: ever be moved by her in a way where she thinks, oh, I can push this guy around and manipulate him. And I was way off topic, but uh…

16:00:31 –> 16:00:34
marni kinrys: No, it’s not way off topic, but.

16:00:33 –> 16:00:34
Dan Munro: um…

16:00:34 –> 16:00:38
marni kinrys: Can you? Can you elaborate a little bit more? I know you only have a question that’s in front of you.

16:00:36 –> 16:00:44
Dan Munro: I’ll read it out word for word. What he said is, if a guy has to prove he can’t be outsmarted just to keep a woman’s respect.

16:00:44 –> 16:00:47
Dan Munro: Where is that trend heading?

16:00:47 –> 16:00:49
Dan Munro: That’s what his question is. He’s saying, you know.

16:00:49 –> 16:00:52
Dan Munro: It’s becoming a trend.

16:00:52 –> 16:00:56
Dan Munro: A young woman listened to on social media, not all women, he said.

16:00:55 –> 16:00:56
marni kinrys: Ah.

16:00:56 –> 16:01:12
marni kinrys: Well, okay, so there’s a lot of trends that are on social media. I had this woman named Christina Grace on my podcast recently, and she is very deep in, like, the manosphere, and I actually appreciate her insight. Um, but she does all these reaction videos to things women say.

16:00:56 –> 16:00:58
Dan Munro: with…

16:01:12 –> 16:01:18
marni kinrys: online, and she… and I was watching her videos, and I was like, I can’t believe women say this *****

16:01:19 –> 16:01:32
marni kinrys: And both of us said, but I don’t know any women in real life who think these things. Like, both of us have never interacted with women who really say these things. Trust me, there’s like… there are things that are getting embedded in us, for sure, but…

16:01:22 –> 16:01:24
Dan Munro: Hmm.

16:01:32 –> 16:01:44
marni kinrys: These extremes are just extremes that are out there doesn’t mean you’re not going to have to battle with like a subset of these extremes. But I think the honest with tact.

16:01:45 –> 16:01:58
marni kinrys: is the best way to combat these things. It doesn’t mean that you can’t let up as a man. You can’t ever have a down moment. Like, my husband and I have been with each other for a very long period of time. He’s had down moments, he’s had very human moments, so have I.

16:01:58 –> 16:02:11
marni kinrys: And then we come back and we repair with each other. And we own up to how ****** we’ve both been for things that we’ve done, and then we’re vulnerable, and…

16:02:12 –> 16:02:17
marni kinrys: we move on, and we we try to hear the other person’s perspective.

16:02:17 –> 16:02:23
marni kinrys: Right? And this is sort of a little bit difficult for me to answer this question, because I don’t fully understand the context, but…

16:02:24 –> 16:02:34
marni kinrys: I don’t want men to think they can never be human with a woman, and that she’s going to hate them, or walk all over them.

16:02:35 –> 16:02:36
marni kinrys: Sorry.

16:02:36 –> 16:02:37
marni kinrys: Thank you.

16:02:36 –> 16:02:43
Dan Munro: No, I think, like, he’s actually gotten this from someone, I won’t name them, but somebody who’s been quite strongly debunked.

16:02:43 –> 16:02:45
Dan Munro: Um, and…

16:02:44 –> 16:02:46
marni kinrys: Oh, that other woman?

16:02:46 –> 16:02:48
Dan Munro: Uh, yeah, the person you get it from, yeah.

16:02:48 –> 16:02:49
marni kinrys: Yeah.

16:02:48 –> 16:02:51
Dan Munro: Um, and…

16:02:51 –> 16:02:58
Dan Munro: It’s just funny, because I was thinking about us talking about flirting. One of my wife’s favorite ways to flirt with me is to manipulate me.

16:02:58 –> 16:03:11
Dan Munro: Like, to do some sort of, like, oh, can you just do the thing? Like, a real feminine thing, and I’m just like, ah, no, I have to. And she loves that. She actually does… like, it’s clearly one of her favorite things to do. She isn’t like, oh my god.

16:03:05 –> 16:03:06
marni kinrys: Right.

16:03:11 –> 16:03:12
marni kinrys: Right.

16:03:11 –> 16:03:26
Dan Munro: Like, it just makes any sense to me that a healthy woman would have such an extreme perspective. But I do be like a grain of truth in that a nice guy who’s super agreeable and bends every will that is impossible to respect.

16:03:17 –> 16:03:19
marni kinrys: Yeah.

16:03:23 –> 16:03:26
marni kinrys: Yes, that’s what I was going to say.

16:03:26 –> 16:03:37
marni kinrys: Yes, so when… so I’ll… I’m just gonna be, like, really honest. So when there was the point of time where me and my husband had a very tense portion of our relationship.

16:03:37 –> 16:03:46
marni kinrys: I wanted to hurt him continuously. Like, that’s just the honest truth, because I was so hurt, you know? Hurt people hurt other people, so…

16:03:46 –> 16:03:55
marni kinrys: there… there is a grain of truth to this. There… there is, like, some satisfaction from that woman.

16:03:55 –> 16:04:10
marni kinrys: to hurt him or get him to do what she wants to do, because it feels satisfying for her. She’s getting something out of it, and it’s control, or whatever it is. I can’t really put myself back in that position now, but I know that there is.

16:04:10 –> 16:04:21
marni kinrys: something to it. But typically it’s exactly what you just said. It’s it’s when she’s been pushed to that place.

16:04:21 –> 16:04:26
marni kinrys: And she’s taken herself there as well, but it’s when she’s in a place.

16:04:26 –> 16:04:30
marni kinrys: I don’t think most women are actually like that when they’re.

16:04:30 –> 16:04:48
marni kinrys: feeling feminine, they’re feeling connected to their partners, it’s usually something is off between the two of them when that type of behavior is satisfying. So, like, even in the book that I was talking about, Why Won’t My Wife Sleep With Me? I explore narcissism, because I have so many guys who are like, ugh, my last girlfriend was a narcissist, my last wife was a narcissist.

16:04:48 –> 16:04:52
marni kinrys: I’m like, there’s not that many narcissists in the world, so she’s not a.

16:04:52 –> 16:05:06
marni kinrys: But she’s been made to act like a narcissist. Both of you together have made this. It’s not like you’ve pushed her into that position, but that’s the result, is that to protect herself, and you to protect yourself.

16:05:06 –> 16:05:15
marni kinrys: She’s shown narcissistic tendencies, and you’ve done whatever it is that you’re doing. So, I think all of that is repairable, but as you just said.

16:05:15 –> 16:05:25
marni kinrys: in a, when you’re in a good space with a woman that you can, you can control by your actions and her actions that behavior I don’t believe exists.

16:05:27 –> 16:05:35
Dan Munro: Yeah, I agree. And generally, whenever I hear say that, like, all women feel this way about all men, I’m like, that’s probably going to as soon as I hear that.

16:05:33 –> 16:05:34
marni kinrys: Yes.

16:05:34 –> 16:05:37
marni kinrys: Yeah, and, like, the truth is…

16:05:37 –> 16:05:41
marni kinrys: Every single person who’s listening to this podcast has a choice.

16:05:41 –> 16:05:44
marni kinrys: You don’t have to be with a woman who is like that.

16:05:44 –> 16:05:56
marni kinrys: You don’t. And if that’s how a woman starts off with you, then, like, that’s a red flag, and you’re… that… but so many people ignore red flags in the beginning. There are some women who are just really ******* There’s some men who are really *******

16:05:56 –> 16:06:10
marni kinrys: That’s just where they’re at. You don’t have to be with them. You don’t have to select them. You get to select who you want to allow into your life. But if you feel really ****** about yourself, and you’re like, I’ll just take what I can get, you’re gonna get *****

16:06:11 –> 16:06:15
Dan Munro: I think you just summed up the manosphere experience, basically.

16:06:14 –> 16:06:17
marni kinrys: Exactly, yeah.

16:06:16 –> 16:06:20
Dan Munro: All right, just one last question.

16:06:20 –> 16:06:22
Dan Munro: And your experience?

16:06:22 –> 16:06:28
Dan Munro: What’s the kind of demographic of men that seek out dating advice the most?

16:06:28 –> 16:06:33
Dan Munro: And what is their single greatest common obstacle in dating or relationships?

16:06:33 –> 16:06:34
marni kinrys: Oh, what?

16:06:33 –> 16:06:36
Dan Munro: So what’s the most common thing you see, and who do you see it in?

16:06:36 –> 16:06:43
marni kinrys: Oh, it’s the nice guy. I don’t think they categorize it as the nice guy. We do, once they start working with us. Um…

16:06:43 –> 16:06:47
marni kinrys: So I’ve had a, a few men recently say this to me.

16:06:47 –> 16:06:50
marni kinrys: that they didn’t understand.

16:06:50 –> 16:06:53
marni kinrys: That you could still be a gentleman.

16:06:53 –> 16:06:56
marni kinrys: As well as being bold.

16:06:56 –> 16:07:05
marni kinrys: And still ask for the things that you want. Like, they misunderstood gentlemen to being kind of what we talked about this entire episode. It just means, she’s first!

16:07:05 –> 16:07:07
marni kinrys: Um…

16:07:07 –> 16:07:14
marni kinrys: You don’t say anything that ruffles feathers. You kind of go with the flow, but you don’t have to be that.

16:07:14 –> 16:07:17
marni kinrys: The thing that I teach the most to men is that.

16:07:17 –> 16:07:34
marni kinrys: You come first, right? What you want. You have to lead with you, not lead with what you think she wants. And that’s the biggest challenge that I see with these men. They’re trying to do things for women they don’t even know, or women that they do know.

16:07:34 –> 16:07:51
marni kinrys: Um, and what we help them do in all of our programs is reverse that, and have them thinking from their perspective. First, what do I enjoy? How do I want to flirt? How do I want to interact with this woman? Do I like this woman? Okay, I like her. Now, am I attracted to her? Oh, I’m attracted to her.

16:07:51 –> 16:08:07
marni kinrys: Do I want to ask her out? Yeah, I do. So I’m going to. So it’s, it’s just reversing how they see the whole dating space and attraction space. That’s, that’s the biggest challenge. And then the demographic, I mean, I have guys who are 18, probably younger who pretend they’re 18.

16:08:07 –> 16:08:12
marni kinrys: And I’ve worked with guys who are 92. So it’s like ev every.

16:08:18 –> 16:08:22
marni kinrys: But I will say, the men that I work with, and I know the men that you work with.

16:08:23 –> 16:08:38
marni kinrys: are the most amazing men I’ve ever met in my life. And every one of my, I have a group coaching call on Wednesday, they’ll have it tonight. I start off my call every, every time the exact same way by reminding them that they are in a top tier of men who have asked for help.

16:08:38 –> 16:08:44
marni kinrys: help, especially from a woman, but who want to do better. Like, that, to me.

16:08:44 –> 16:08:59
marni kinrys: is like an exceptional category of human beings. So people who are listening to this show, people who do coaching with you, who do coaching with me. These are people who want change and want better, and that is strength, courage.

16:08:59 –> 16:09:08
marni kinrys: brave, like, I just… I think the world of the men that I work with, and I know that you do as well. So it’s… that’s… that’s the incredible demographic that I work with.

16:09:10 –> 16:09:17
Dan Munro: Yeah, I totally agree. Like, I didn’t expect that when I first got into this, that I’d actually be inspired, and not just blowing smoke in any way, but…

16:09:17 –> 16:09:19
Dan Munro: realizing that.

16:09:19 –> 16:09:35
Dan Munro: The default human position is to be cognitively closed off, to not want to change your beliefs, not accept any faults in yourself. So to be a person who’s like, opening up that and going, Look, there’s things I could fix, and I’m going to take responsibility for them. That is.

16:09:25 –> 16:09:27
marni kinrys: Yeah!

16:09:35 –> 16:09:41
Dan Munro: a small minority, and I do believe that they’re operating at a higher level than most other people.

16:09:40 –> 16:09:43
marni kinrys: I agree. I agree.

16:09:42 –> 16:09:44
Dan Munro: Um…

16:09:44 –> 16:09:47
Dan Munro: I’ll I’ll include all your links and everything.

16:09:47 –> 16:09:53
Dan Munro: below wherever this is posted, but where would you recommend people start if they wanted to get into your work?

16:09:54 –> 16:10:09
marni kinrys: You know what I’m gonna do? So I’m gonna take these, uh, flirting sheets, and I am going to, uh, put a, together a link, and I’m gonna make up that link right now. So I’m gonna have them go to winggirlmethod slash.

16:09:58 –> 16:09:59
Dan Munro: Mm-hmm.

16:10:09 –> 16:10:11
marni kinrys: Flirt Cheat Sheet.

16:10:11 –> 16:10:23
marni kinrys: And that’s where they can find out more information about me, and they can get access to that flirting cheat sheet that I shared for a split second. Um, and then they’ll be on my newsletter list once they get access to this, um…

16:10:23 –> 16:10:27
marni kinrys: Pdf. And then they can hear about everything from me.

16:10:27 –> 16:10:31
Dan Munro: Perfect. We’ll set that up for them, send it through.

16:10:29 –> 16:10:35
marni kinrys: Perfect. Okay, thank you. This was a very good conversation. I want you on my podcast too.

16:10:31 –> 16:10:33
Dan Munro: Awesome money. I really enjoy it.

16:10:35 –> 16:10:42
Dan Munro: Happy to come on board. And yeah, this is — I think we see eye to eye on a lot of key topics here.

16:10:41 –> 16:10:43
marni kinrys: Yeah.

16:10:42 –> 16:10:48
Dan Munro: And I’m stoked that you’ve stuck with the work for so long too, like prop. Yeah.

16:10:46 –> 16:10:56
marni kinrys: Oh, I love it. How can I not? It helps me too, selfishly. Every time. Every time. Actually, what’s your… Well, I don’t know if we’re still recording, but I was gonna say, um…

16:10:49 –> 16:10:51
Dan Munro: Oh, yeah.

16:10:51 –> 16:10:52
Dan Munro: Yeah. Okay.

16:10:56 –> 16:10:58
marni kinrys: What’s your email? So I can.

16:10:58 –> 16:11:00
marni kinrys: Send you an email.

16:11:00 –> 16:11:05
Dan Munro: Yeah, I’ll just, uh, maybe… it’s just dan at brojo.org.

16:11:05 –> 16:11:06
marni kinrys: And at.

16:11:07 –> 16:11:11
marni kinrys: Growjo, B-R-J-O, dot org.

16:11:14 –> 16:11:16
marni kinrys: Okay, perfect.

16:11:17 –> 16:11:19
marni kinrys: Okay, perfect. I’m gonna…

16:11:20 –> 16:11:33
marni kinrys: email you once we’re done. I have to go take my children out now, but I’ll email you later today. Yeah, because I’d love to have you on my men’s circle, because I think you’d be great, um, and then on my podcast.