Dan Munro and self-aware psychopath Jackson Noble (a.k.a. “Jack the Ripper”) engage in a thought-provoking discussion on various aspects of psychopathy, including its stigmatized association with criminality, the diversity of human personality traits, and the potential benefits of possessing psychopathic traits in certain contexts.

They also share their personal experiences with childhood trauma, moral codes, self-confidence building, love, parenthood, trust, and protectiveness. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the importance of understanding the role of nature and nurture in shaping personality types and offer practical advice on how to overcome self-doubt and build confidence, particularly focusing on how to stop caring what other people think of you.

They share their personal experiences and insights, often highlighting the complexities of psychopathy traits and issues and the importance of navigating them ethically and responsibly. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the need for honesty, self-trust, and long-term thinking, as well as the importance of protecting children and loved ones from harm.

Overall, the conversation is both introspective and informative, offering valuable insights into the human psyche and the importance of empathy and self-awareness.

This is the first of a 3 part interview series. The other episodes include

• Interview with Jax’s girlfriend Teagan’s on her perspective about being in a relationship with a psychopath
• Jax reveals the darksides and downsides to being ASPD

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Note:

Jackson is a self-proclaimed psychopath. I have received accusations from people on the internet that he commits various frauds or scams (none substantiated with any evidence I should add). Even if these are true – when I do an interview, when doing podcast interviews I always give the interviewee the benefit of the doubt and let them say whatever they want. I trust you, the listener, to discern for yourself whether you believe or trust my guests. It should be obvious: if a guy says he’s a psychopath, don’t be shocked if his business practices are less than ethical. Use your logic when engaging in any purchases, deals or negotiations.

Full transcript

Dan Munro: Welcome back to Brojo online. I have a very special episode for you guys. Today, I’ll be interviewing Jackson Noble, aka Jack the Ripper, a certified psychopath, which is very rare. He’s been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, he scores 31 out of 33 on the psychopath scale, which is incredibly high. Now, he could have chosen a path of harm and crime as some psychopaths do. But Jack is actually a very good example of a high functioning psychopath who’s found a way to engage with society meaningfully. And helpfully, he’s a writer of horror, and he is planning to become a director in this genre as well. His book isn’t even finished yet, and it’s already pumping out pre-sales. He’s got a huge following on social media, because he is open, transparent, and honest about psychopathy, which is incredibly rare. And he gives us this amazing opportunity to get some insight into what it’s like to be high on psychopathic traits. Jackson is going to share what it’s like to live without self-doubt, with full natural confidence. And without caring what other people think of him. It’s something completely alien to him to be anxious about the opinions of others. And he’s going to share with us what we might be able to learn from him. And just give us a fascinating insight into his incredibly unique brain.

Dan Munro: Just to give you a bit of background, before we jump in, I’ve been following you on as must be Tick Tock for a while now, and I used to work in the Department of Corrections. I used to work with really high risk criminals. A lot of them were on the down spectrum to right up the top. But a lot of them are sort of psychopathic, but without self control. I was really fascinated by psychopathy, I’ve got quite high and some psychopathic traits for myself. But I’m also high in empathy.

Jackson Noble: Yes, it’s a spectrum. Everyone’s on it to an extent.

Dan Munro: Absolutely. Yeah. I’ve worked in the field of psychology for 20 years now. And I think all the labels and categorizations are just arbitrary. We’re all just on spectrums of traits, basically.

Dan Munro: I’m really fascinated about your point of view and the life you’ve led, and particularly what people might be able to learn from you, people who don’t have these traits, or maybe could work on developing some of these traits that would be more helpful for them, that         thing.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, it was interesting to me that you thought of that, too, because that’s, it almost would sound odd, if you said it to the average person to just think outside of the box and to realize that having psychopathic traits actually is very beneficial. And just to think of it that way was really cool. That’s why I thought: “This is awesome.” Because that’s true, and most people wouldn’t think of it that way.

Dan Munro: Most people think of serial killers and all that shit when they hear the word psychopath. Yeah. There’s a great book by Jim Dutton called The Wisdom of psychopaths. And he talks about all the high functioning psychopaths: the surgeons and lawyers and military leaders. People capable of things that other people aren’t and how actually, psychopaths are a very necessary part of society, how we would crumble without the people who can’t take those risks.

Jackson Noble: That’s true. And it’s actually more, I would think, more than the serial killers.

Dan Munro: Well, that’s the fascinating thing, I think, about the data around psychopathy. I mean, some of them are so good at masking and so got a fitting in and they’re not going to willingly get tested and all this sort of stuff. Who knows how many psychopaths there are because they’re high functioning. And this is, I think, what’s drawn me to you. I recently did an interview with someone who calls themself an aware Narcissist, so he has narcissistic personality disorder and, like yourself, he’s sort of on social media talking openly and transparently about who he is and how he functions. And revealing the other side of what’s the so-called disorder. Anyway, I’ve got no plan . There are certain things I want to talk to you about. I’m really keen to hear about your perspectives on fatherhood, connection, and love. What that means for you, but also things such as confidence, risk taking, ruthlessness, all those kinds of traits that might come naturally to you that other people could do with a bit more or frankly.       I’m not coming at this thinking that there’s something wrong with you. I’ve just learned too much about psychopathy to actually believe that it’s a right or wrong thing. Right, some of the traits are helpful, depending on how they’re used, some of them aren’t depending on how they’re used. And it’s a mastery thing. Yeah.

Jackson Noble: Right. Yeah. That’s what’s interesting, too, because that really, for me, comes down to weighing out the risk and almost asking, is it worth the risk? just because you are willing to take a risk, is it worth it? It’s also because that’s another thing, people will think that psychopaths are very    impulsive, which we are, but at the same time, I can’t speak for all of them. But for myself, I know. I feel I’m smart enough to know where I don’t even want to attempt. I mean, to even get to put the risk, it still doesn’t make sense to even take a risk, even though I don’t mind doing it.

Dan Munro: Well, that’s yeah, that’s one of the fascinating elements that I’m keen to explore. As you know one of my traits is ruthlessness. And when I was working in corrections, that meant that I could make these really high stakes decisions. But I just had no emotional reaction. For me it was just calculating likelihoods. And I’ve just gone with the numbers. This was the best move based on the numbers. And it took me a while to realize that other people don’t really think    that when it comes to risk taking they are quite emotional, they don’t really calculate.

Jackson Noble: Right? Yeah.

Dan Munro: But let’s sort of start at the beginning. Let’s not jump all over. I’m going to get way too excited about this conversation. Because the topics are just so fascinating. Yeah, there’s often a lot of my audience who are into confidence building. We often talk about psychopathic traits, and especially in the social realm. Let’s start with you, man. Let’s make this about you. Tell me a bit about, I guess the story arc from where you come from, how you found out about what’s going on with you and how that ended up with you. Being on social media, writing books, that         basic story.

Jackson Noble: I’m from Michigan. I had a decent upbringing. Mom drank a little bit. My real dad wasn’t in the picture. But my stepdad was, but he was always gone at work. And so I think, because I’m sure nature loads the gun and nurture pulls the trigger.  It’s a little bit of both. There’s a lot of people who question whether psychopaths are born or made. And I think it’s a little bit of both. And that’s the interesting thing. I was just talking about this the other day, actually. My mom had this double side. She was a very, very good mom. No complaint, I get most of my parenting traits from her. But then there was my stepdad, he worked nights, from 5:36pm, he was gone. And my mom would drink. And then we could just do whatever the fuck we wanted.

I think that’s where it started, for me to have almost this double side, I wouldn’t say a double life, but it definitely a double, a split mind. A switch that I could just flick on and off whenever I feel    it. But yeah, that’s where I think it really came from, I can’t really say but I know something was already wrong. I never hurt animals or anything like that. But I would observe one if I saw it, and not really mind, I would pick it up or something. They wouldn’t bother me. I learned that it was weird. But I think it was more like I was getting raised by the same parent, but two, it was two versions of the same parents. I think that’s a huge part. because that just went on for 10 years. I mean, after a while you could do whatever you want at nighttime. And then you wake up, and then you’ll get scolded for it. When Mom was hung over. And I was like, wait, you’re not even teaching me to not do what I want from 6pm onwards. When the sun goes down, everything can go down. It was literally when the sun was up, I had to follow rules. And when the sun went down I did not. And then from there, as a kid, I could easily pick what I wanted to do. And again, it makes a lot more sense now that I have children because it just helps me realize it. Do you have kids?

Dan Munro: Yeah, I’ve got one daughter. Yep. Okay.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, that’s what I figured when you said ruthlessness, cuz I was gonna say a lot. I think a lot of dads just have that more than other people, I think, because it’s necessary. But yeah, I think that’s a huge part of being a nurturer. But I think the first time I really knew something was weird was when I got picked on. You remember the movie “Holes”?

Dan Munro: Vaguely.

Jackson Noble: They dug holes. There were kids in a boot camp or something, they got in trouble and had to dig up. Well, I would do that way before that movie came out. I would just, for anyone who bullied me, I wouldn’t say I had a list. But I would dig holes. If I had four bullies in school, I would have four holes that I would dig. And I never had any plans to put someone in them or anything like that. It was more of a therapeutic thing. It made me feel I had an edge on them. If someone bullies me and I go dig a deep hole, and I just assume I imagine you there. But next time you make fun of me it makes me feel I know something you don’t know. And it just made me feel like I have a leg up. I think that first time someone had mentioned it was my friend Devin, he said, bro, what the fuck? And I said–What do you mean? I’m just digging, what’s wrong with that? It’s a workout. And he said,Nah, dude, that’s weird. And I did not understand why. And then I realized when I didn’t want people to know, that was the very first time I ever tried to mask.

Dan Munro: Yeah, you just sort of found out the hard way what other people think the rules are. I guess you had to find out by stepping over the line? Well, that’s one of the things I’m really fascinated by, the development of, I guess, what would be your moral code or your principles? How you guide your behavior in terms of right and wrong, because I imagine a different system to what most people do, which most people would be based on guilt and shame.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, I definitely don’t feel that. But I don’t know. I think, again, I just feel in control, I think I didn’t really learn right from wrong, I just experienced it. Just being a kid and just basically having a perfect setup to just do whatever I wanted, and then get caught and do it.       I think at a certain point, by the time I knew what right and wrong was, I didn’t care. And it just took some time, anything else, I mean, it’s what I always say, it’s like riding a bike, but you can still fall off. It’s a very thin line, always. And I’m aware of that as anybody else. But I think by the time I learned what right and wrong was I just didn’t really care. But, as I got older, I realized how to master it and make it work in my favor, if that makes sense.

Dan Munro: Yeah, oh, that’s one of the things I learned working with psychopathic criminals. I had to find a way to make pro-social behavior in their best interest. They weren’t going to do it for emotional reasons, they were not going to do it because they felt bad for people, because they wanted some sort of outcome for others. But I had to do it, basically, my method was to make it a real hassle to be a criminal, and real easy not to be. And that was generally my         rehab approach for people whose guilt and remorse were not going to be lever for their behavior. And this was also where I started to have insights about myself. Because while I do feel some guilt and remorse, it’s probably more self centered, I got in trouble. And then I’m upset with myself for making my quality of life worse. Though I do have empathy for others, I’m generally pretty strong at justifying my own behavior to myself. Very quick, right?

Jackson Noble: Yeah, I think most people are too, they just don’t admit it.

Dan Munro: I do wonder, well, this is one of the things because I, like I said, I’m on the spectrum. I’m not all the way there maybe. But I have felt a bit alien my whole life. I have felt    I’m operating on a different system and having to play a game. And I just sort of stopped playing the game as an adult and decided to just be real. That’s why I’m really interested especially as you go into teenage years and so on. What was your view of the system that you saw others living by and how you integrated or worked with that?

Jackson Noble: I think school it’s when, I noticed pretty early that it was again, a lot of people have different views on this, but it just seemed like waking up at seven and leaving at three just seemed pointless to me. And I’m sure everyone’s felt that, I’m never gonna use this math. But, it was a little deeper than that I just felt, I don’t know, it was just really irritating for me to have to go to school. I got expelled from tons of schools for this. And again, I didn’t, I didn’t know how to hide it at all. I don’t even think I ever tried. I just did not have authority. I really didn’t. I just didn’t understand. And that’s it, not even that. But again, creativity, I couldn’t even be creative in school, I just basically had to blindly follow people who I thought weren’t even necessarily happy.       I just didn’t understand that. And I don’t know, I just think I always rebelled against it. But I think a lot of people do. But yeah, I don’t know when I thought about it, I just wasn’t, there was nothing    there, there was never one thought about college. Or I didn’t ever care if I graduated, which I still haven’t. And I make it a point not to now, I don’t really want to ever go back and get it. I’d just do without and again, it’s just about having full control. I don’t want anyone to tell me anything. And if I can make the rules work in my favor, and do well without it just makes me feel better. Because I feel I’m gonna lose if I have to. Because I have a skilled trade and welding. I could always fall back on that, but I would never use it. I would die before I use that, because that would be me having to ask somebody. It would just take away that dynamic. I just couldn’t, it would drive me crazy, honestly.

Dan Munro: Sounds sort of independence and control are huge principles for you.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, for sure. another thing too, we were talking about the trial and error thing. When my impulses were really bad, I just did it. I won’t get all the way into it, it’s a huge thing. But when I was, I think it was the summer of which I can’t remember exactly, but I dropped out of my freshman year. I know that. And within a year, we were doing all types of shit. And basically, I got in trouble for this. The charges were kidnapping– what wasn’t kidnapping– was unlawful imprisonment, carjacking and armed robbery. I was 17, and we put this dude in his trunk, had a meet up with this girl to pay for him. And then we just threw him in the trunk of his own car and took them to a bank. And then let him drive away after and then so I was in jail for that. And I was 17. And it was three capital felonies. I thought to myself, Jesus Christ. I didn’t really realize. I think that just because I was gonna get five years, but then they first time felon, it wasn’t carjacking because he drove away in his own car. They could drop that. Then they dropped the unlawful imprisonment and they dropped the armed  felon for the first time on ARM. I got three years probation, so but the fear of having I wouldn’t even say fear, really. But the lack of control, I guess, of having to do five years when I’m 17, which looking back, it would have been that big of a deal. It’s really not that crazy. you’ve seen much worse, it’s actually pretty fortunate to get it out of the way that early. But I think about getting out after that. Mainly kinda, Okay, let me slow it down a little bit, because I remember getting arrested. And I didn’t even know what it was for. I didn’t know how many years it was for, or I just had no idea when they told me the charges. I thought this could be anything. I don’t even know what it was for. And I remember feeling that. And I just felt messy.

Jackson Noble: And so I think after that I started to and again, being in jail, you more than anybody probably, more than me probably, know that it’s crime school. That’s really what it is. For a lot of people you just learn how to get better at shit. But yeah, I think after that I just slowly became a little smarter with things up until now where I don’t have to do anything illegal, because it doesn’t benefit me to do that. And I almost feel if I see and this this might sound bold, but I’m just being honest, if I seen another person who was a psychopath, and they made, let’s say they, I don’t know, rob someone or maybe embezzled a bunch of money and made millions of dollars, and then they went to prison. And when I’m out here functioning, I feel I’m smarter than that person because you couldn’t control the outcome enough to be able to still be here controlling the outcome. So I think that’s a big part of it. Yeah, I think that’s a huge part of it pretty much. But I think that’s what happened. I just realized that it’s not even worth getting caught. Because I don’t mind even with the thing I just told you about. I didn’t have any remorse at all, not real, I mean, I acted as if I had in court, but I really didn’t have any. And then it didn’t come down to that though. I just don’t want to be in a position where I have no control. And I think that was more important for me than to live out and risk stuff.

Dan Munro: Yeah, this is fucking fascinating for me, because I worked with so many guys who when they hit that crossroads, they went the other direction. I decided I’m going to be the badass in jail or I’m going to be the gang leader or whatever. And they went a different path to gain that sense of control and spent the rest of their lives in and out of prison. But with a very similar build up to that point, you just went the other way on that decision. But again, I promise you, you’re gonna be glad you did for the rest of your life.

Jackson Noble: I mean, oh, no, I already am. Yeah, for sure. But see, that’s just, I get it. I do. Some people say, Oh, how I’ve never gotten into gangs or anything like that. I didn’t, I just have never gotten into that. Getting in a gang you’re trying to, basically, I don’t know how it works. But I’m assuming, like anything else, you work your way up. And I just walk right in you and me. That’s right now, I’m writing this book, but I’m really trying to be a director, but I’m not going to school for it. Because I feel superior to that. I’m just gonna find a way to do it to where it falls in my lap, and then it’ll probably work, honestly. But, um, yeah, I just think, but I do understand when I see that, when I see people being gang leaders in prison. It actually does make a lot of sense to me. Because part of me does get it. You do, you have control in there, a lot of it, maybe even over some of the guards. I’m sure usually, but when you break it down, part of me thinks that that’s an amateur level of psychopathy to not control a lot. I always use the example, I don’t go out in public a lot. Because if a guy walks up, I’m with my girlfriend, and the guy says, What’s up, bitch? And then I find him. You’re my master. You’re not gonna control me. Even if you don’t, I mean, physical contact is different. But we all, I’m sure you’ve been around more of them than most people, those hotheads where you can be–Hey, watch this, I can control where this guy sleeps tonight. Hey, bitch, and then he reacts and goes to jail. It’s someone who could just be– watch this, I’m gonna tell you where he is. He’s asleep. And just something’s gonna make him hit me. I just cannot stand to have someone have that level of pull over me. Which makes me think that people that even get to the point where they’re in prison for a long time, or whatever. It just seems this might sound bold, but it just seems an amateur level of psychopathy. I feel the real form of it is as you were saying CEO, or you just control their narrative however you want. If I want to go to prison I can, if I don’t want to I don’t have to. I just have full control. I think you end up in a position where you don’t have it.

Dan Munro: Again, this is really interesting. Once I started studying psychopathy, I realized the ones I’ve seen in prison. The main factor, trait factor, is self-control issues and impulsivity. Short term thinking. And that’s a make or break, the difference between a CEO and a drug dealer can often just be driven, the CEO just simply thinks: “That’s a better way to get what I want.” And that’s exactly it. This is why I find it really interesting because I, in my work, I often talk about the concept of core values and integrity, and how decision making, most people, they make decisions where they think they’re trying to achieve a goal where their decision making actually sabotage that so most people are engaging in this ongoing pattern of self harm. They’re doing short term thinking, and they’re ending up in the worst possible position. And this, this, I’m not talking about criminals at all. Everyday people.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, you’re I know, you mean, yeah, for sure.

Dan Munro: Do you seem to have the ability to calculate the longer shot and see the better path? Even this idea of you not going to school and doing things on your own? That’s, that’s really long term thinking, actually.

Jackson Noble: That’s interesting, because a lot of people think the opposite. But I was just saying this to someone else, they were saying: “Oh, well, my dad just wants me to have work experience.” And I thought what’s interesting is having no work experience is experience because you’re gonna figure out how to figure it out. No one can take that from you. Well, that’s what I’d say: what you’re doing is the developmental steps to become completely self-sufficient, resilient, resourceful, and you can’t learn they’re following the rules. You have to learn that with trial and error. It looks like in the short term, it’s a slow path, but long term it is the faster way.

Especially, you can especially teach your kids that. I wouldn’t want my kids to go to a college or anything like that. I would tell him just bet on yourself. Really, that’s what it is,

Dan Munro: Well, this is a sci -fi. You are betting on yourself as the most natural thing In the world, but for most people, they might pretend that they’re doing it. But most people can’t do it. They see themselves as someone they don’t trust, someone who they can’t bet it on, someone who they discourage actively. And I know just enough about psychopathy that the idea of         discouraging yourself from being hard on yourself is probably quite foreign concept to you. Imagine the voice in your heads fairly encouraged?

Jackson Noble:Yeah, actually, it is. That’s interesting that you say that. I’ve never heard anyone say that. Yeah, definitely. I just don’t have any doubt at all. And I think that’s a big thing, not to take it off in this direction. But when people talk about manifesting and the law of attraction and shit like that, it’s almost a superpower. If you can’t doubt yourself. I just don’t think it’s far- fetched at all that my first book is a best seller. I just don’t think that. And I think again, it’s what most people will say, or, you hear it all the time: whether you think you can or can’t, you’re right. And so even in December, when I was trying to, I guess I wouldn’t say manifest, but basically I just do it naturally. Because I don’t have any doubt, if we’re going off in terms of energy, then it’s all about what you’re giving out. It’s actually positive energy, it’s self-belief. And if there’s none of the other one, it’s just going to work, it’s going to eventually work.

And so, as I was saying, this in December: I’m gonna be a writer. And then I just instantly wrote one chapter, I was thinking, I’m the next Stephen King. And I was saying that boldly I have it on video, I was saying that, I recorded myself because, i thought, this will be used in a documentary. It’ll be dope, or to have the scenes from before, trust me, versus something like, oh, he already got it. I want the behind the scenes stuff.

And they were people thinking–What the fuck are you talking about? I mean, and I didn’t even mind it at all that people didn’t believe it. But um, they would wonder how are you going to do it? I’m watching YouTube videos on all these first time authors on how they can, oh, it takes a year to get your first $1,000. I was like, I just did it, then again, that’s what I’m getting to. That’s where it came from. I know for a fact that it’s not hard. It’s just basically persuasion. And a lot of people say “Oh, you’re really good at marketing.” It’s like Trump, for an example. He’s not a marketer, he’s persuading. And, part of marketing is persuasion. I mean, you could say, the marketing is good, but it’s really just persuading people to buy it. And that’s literally why my book is already in pre-orders, and I haven’t even finished writing it. And no, I’ve never written a book. I don’t even know if I can write well. That’s the funny thing. And I’ve already made $40,000 off of it. It’s what I mean, but again, that’s what I’m getting to. What comes first is that I do not doubt that I could do it. I’m just going to do it. And it’s going to work because I said it’s going to work and it just works. And it’s interesting that people, I know, I don’t understand doubting yourself, I couldn’t ever wrap my head around doing that.

Dan Munro: That’s, I think that’s got to be the thing that people would be most envious of. Because, yeah, self doubt is probably the cause of the most suffering that people have in their lives. And , it’s interesting, I saw a stat the other day, and this is scientific research, that there are more billionaires than there are writers who make a living from writing. Okay, so, you’re more likely to be a billionaire than to be a successful writer. Yeah, and I don’t have any problems telling you that because I know I won’t throw you off. But feet, so for you to actually make it and write something that can’t stop you. And for you to be 40 grand up on your first book, you’re already in    the top 1% of writers and you haven’t even published yet. And, and this is purely on self belief, because it’s obviously not on the writing. Nobody’s read it yet. Right. Your self belief is obviously transferred into your persuasion and your marketing, you’re basically just telling everyone what you feel about your own ability, and they’re buying it because your frame was so strong.

Jackson Noble: By the way, when you said there’s more billionaires than successful writers, you can use that what, throw me off the first thing I thought it was damn, Stephen King and JK Rowling or both. I mean, so there’s also the writers that are billionaires. That’s the first thing on my mind, so I got excited when I heard that was, damn, so it’s more likely to become a billionaire. That’s good news.

Dan Munro: See, most people would say “Oh my God, there’s no point in writing.” That would be the first reaction to that piece of information as I give up. What’s the point? Yeah, and you’re just thinking “I’m gonna be a billionaire.”

Jackson Noble: That just fired me up for the day. I’m not gonna lie.

Dan Munro:  And this is what I’m saying this will be foreign to everybody else, the other 99% they go the other direction when they hear their bad news. But the science is really clear on optimism is far more successful than pessimism, they basically think you can get more. And I think that it doesn’t need to be anything spiritual woowoo or anything to do with, just your behavior is going to be solid and a straight line forward and blast through the obstacles. It’s mathematical. Right?

Jackson Noble:Yeah, they wanted to be obstacles at a certain point.

Dan Munro:And this is my own mediocre success has come from this approach, these days, I take action, and then clean up afterwards. Rather than thinking about what perfect would look I just move forward thinking this is gonna work out. And ever since that approach it has worked.

Jackson Noble: Funny. Yeah.

Dan Munro: Well, we’ll come back to this because I’m going to try and get your insights on how you might be able to pass on the ability to reduce self doubt to someone else. But what I really wanted to find out about is how, okay, so here’s my impression of you. My main focus of my work is honesty. I’ve got this basic theory that quality of life comes from confidence, confidence comes from shamelessness about who you are. Shamelessness comes from honesty.       honesty is the tip of the arrow. If you want to have a good life, you just have to be real, real honest all the time. And you’ll love yourself. The only times I’ve made the exception to that rule is when I’ve worked with psychopaths and corrections because they are clever. They thoroughly enjoy manipulating, deceiving. The only time I saw them uncomfortable was when they were being honest, they actually looked much more comfortable when they were pulling my strings, and they were good at, but fucking they manipulate the shit out of me. And even I was well trained. You, my impression of you is that you really are being honest. Now I’ll never know. But you say things that are so honest that wouldn’t be in your best interest. There could be dishonest things you’d say that would be more appealing to people. And that’s what convinces me that you are being honest in your tick tock videos and stuff.

Jackson Noble: Yeah. That’s the interesting part, though, is that a lot of people, I love that you notice that. I am actually being honest. But this is the thing. This is the first time I’ve done it in my whole life I would say. Because even last September, with my girlfriend when she saw it on her phone. How would a psychopath be self-serving? And I took it very to heart. But the reason that I’m honest about it, and the reason that you can probably pick up on it, is that because that is true because it works in my favor. You don’t I mean, a lot of people are thinking you’re not a psychopath, a psychopath never out themselves. And I was, again, you got to really look into it. Because the psychopaths work very well when the rules are in their favor. If I am going to write and I like to, I want to direct my book trailers, do art or whatever, just writing, cinematography and art. If I can do that, if I hit the lottery, I’m still doing that. I love doing that shit, it’s very gratifying, or whatever the word is, I get gratification from–it serves me well. But if I can be honest, my honesty is going to work. Because if you’re a horror writer, if you read horror books, or you watch horror movies, and you find out the writer of the book, or the director is a psychopath, everyone wants to fall asleep to a documentary and get in the mind of a psychopath. I’m well aware that that will work, mixed in with the whole thing that girls have over it and shit. It just works to be honest. That’s the only reason I tell people all the time. In no way am I trying to help people know the signs or anything. It’s 100% for me, but it does work. I could see where it works both ways. And I don’t really mind that it does. If someone says “hey, oh, thank you. I didn’t know that my boyfriend was a psychopath. I was wondering.” I’m going to be like “you’re welcome.” But at the end of the day, honestly, I’m not trying to help people realize what it is. It’s solely because I know that it works in my favor. To be honest, it is backwards, but it makes sense.

Dan Munro: Well, look, this is my whole philosophy, man, because the more honest you are, the better it works out for you. You can actually say, I’m just doing this for my own selfish interests and people say now I want to watch them always since they are so transparent. I said, I did an interview with a guy who’s got a really strong, narcissistic personality disorder, which is different. It’s much more fragile. Taking things personally and getting upset a lot and a lot of self-doubt. But what I think the main difference between narcissists and psychopaths is, is that for the narcissist getting attention is the point. And so for him being honest about being a narcissist gets him heaps of attention. And even if he’s honest about that, he gets even more attention. I thought, fucking rich get richer, and nothing actually has to be deception. And that’s my theory of honesty–that if you get to, what I call radical honesty or powerful honesty, where everything’s out in the open, then you end up quite quickly creating a life that’s always in your favor. Because everything’s react to your honesty, and only the good shots are going to attract them. And then you can just keep being more honest, and you just double down.

Jackson Noble: It actually sounds like a recipe for disaster because at one point, that tension goes away, what happened? That, where my thing is more I say control to try to be honest. But it’s more some of being in control of my own life, since something stupid can happen. I could knock over a glass of milk or something. And it will really frustrate me because it symbolizes things falling apart. And I keep everything. But I think with my thing, it’s more how you said, with the narcissist it has to do with attention? My thing is I don’t really mind, I don’t mind it, but I don’t really also, actually, what, I do it sometimes. But it’s definitely not the driving factor. My thing is that I realized that in order to sell a movie, or sell a book, you just need eyes. It’s like any other business that you would do the more customers you have, the more eyes on it, the better you’re going to do. And then it’s more for me, it’s more of the recognition. I want people to recognize or, I guess, give them credit, in a way, but I wouldn’t say attention. I think it’s a little bit different. But I think with the narcissism thing eventually what if your account gets banned? Now the next person that runs into they’re gonna need a certain level of attention that you just can’t give them? As to where if mine goes away, I’m just resilient to where I don’t even care. I’ve had it happen, 600k gets banned. I don’t even care because I just know, it’ll go back up, because I don’t think it won’t.

Dan Munro: I think you’re onto something. Yeah. I mean, the guy I spoke down to, there’s different days in our system, of course, but he definitely lives or dies on positive attention. Add a comment, he sits with it for a week. And if it gets a good one, it gets high. Whereas I think your sounds like it focuses much more around the control element. The way I read it is with psychopathy, the attention functions as a means to an end. There, a psychopath will pay attention if it’s serving the greater goal. But it gets in the way of the goal. You’d rather be silent and no one does that.

Jackson Noble: Yeah. It’s interesting that you say that because to me, the negative attention also gets to the goal. I don’t mind at all. I do see that there’s more good than bad, which oddly there is, you’d think it’d be the other way around. But if you see someone else, post one of my videos, and you go look at the comments. Totally different. People are like “Oh, this dude’s glorifying. And bla bla bla bla bla.” And it’s, well, no, because I’m trying to be a horror director. At the end of the day. That’s my main goal is to be a director. And horror is the most women empowering genre that there is because of the final girl, you’ve never heard of a horror movie where the guy lives at the end, and the girl doesn’t, so you could say that. But it’s the same thing. Again, it’s not that I’m doing anything to hurt anybody. I’m just being honest about it. I’m using it as my favorite. But it’s interesting, because if you look at comments, the other if someone else posts my video to a platform, it’s just open, it’s 90% Negative. But if it’s on my platform, you can start to see where that control factor comes in. It’s knowing where to target and how to get them and a big part of that was just being honest, bringing up the perfect holding thing that people want to hear about. Just say it, it works in your favor. But what I’m getting to is that when I see negative comments, they’re less online, on my platforms, but I don’t mind it’s just a number to me. It could be all negative online, and it wouldn’t bother me at all because it would be like the engagement is what matters, because it’s a good movie. I’ve heard about good movies from bad reviews, or a lot of us didn’t even know who someone was until they got canceled. To me it doesn’t even matter. I think both work equally actually. Maybe even I think the bad attention might work even more work better than the good to be honest.

Dan Munro: There’s a famous case study you might want to look into. There’s a book called I hope they serve beer and how by Tucker Max, and was Ryan, gosh, I forgot as a stoic writer Brian Holliday was involved in the marketing. And they deliberately falsified negative feedback, negative reviews of the book and stuff to sell it, and it worked. Wow. I’m not saying people should do that. But they did. Yeah, they understood marketing beyond what anybody else did at the time. And they turned an unknown guy into a big selling writer, by making it look    controversial and causing riots and stuff when none of that was actually happening.

Jackson Noble: That’s psychopathic, right there.

Dan Munro: Yeah, I’ve often wondered, because I’m really into the stoic philosophy. And stoic philosophy looks like a psychopath on a leash sometimes. Yeah. What I’m really interested in is what was the turning point for you, if you remember, and it might not be just one moment where you came to the conclusion that you’re going to try this honesty thing, especially broadcasting it out to an audience?

Jackson Noble: Um, let me think, I think it was. Because there was an actual, I know, there was an actual war that happened. It might have been something I can’t remember exactly, but I’ll give you an example. I think I was just posting videos, edits, because at first I had the idea if you really scroll through my Tiktok, and go down to last year. Even this time last year, I was doing more, I was just gonna sell a phony course. But then again, I was thinking, when I do that, if I hit the lottery, and I wouldn’t, it wasn’t really, it was just honestly, it was too easy. You could just make a million, anyone can make a million dollars off selling or these dudes, they do steroids and they sell a fitness course, it’s so easy, and so to me, that just wasn’t, I don’t know. But really what it was, again, it falls into control. I was watching a movie. I won’t trash the movie, but it was a terrible ending on a new horror movie, and it pissed me off so bad. And I thought if I could be on that set, and everyone just had to listen to me, this movie would have been better. And I meant it. And I still believe that 100% And then the same night I was trying to find a good movie. I watched a Jack the Ripper documentary. And I was trying to find a movie. And there wasn’t one. There were no movies, and the only movies there were the Ripper was only in the movies for a total of three, four minutes. And I thought they don’t have a modern remake. Why the fuck, it’s the first big it’s the name along with Sal. It just blew my mind. If you go back and look at my December I had a vampire vibe going on it, trench coat. I wasn’t really fully sold on the writing the Jack the Ripper, restart retelling the story, but it was more just making those eerie edits portraying that villain character, and I think someone in the comments, I don’t know for sure. But I remember seeing a few, maybe even where they were like “Oh, we love a good psychopath, or we love a psychopath” There’s something like that. And then it just clicked. And I was, ah, they don’t even know. And I’ve actually no, this was what it was because I made a joke with my girlfriend. And actually I am one! That’s funny. I’m just going to say that, because it’s going to work in my favor. And even my girlfriend worried that I can get negative feedback. And then I said that I don’t think that’s how that’s gonna work. And then I went as far as exposing, like, my, my mirror here. Yeah, it’s like, now, but I just, it’s just a thing, you know, every, like, few months, you switch them out, because it’s a thing you’ve done your whole life, you know, so they really don’t need to be there. I thought I am going to completely out myself because it is going to work in my favor. Even if I was to write this book and go do serial killings, it would be a bestseller. If I just am honest about this, this is the best case scenario given that someone just said that about psychopaths without knowing that was true. And I was like, well, man this will work even better if they knew that, I am one, you know?

Dan Munro: Yeah, cuz that’s, that’s what caught my attention about your first mirror thing. I thought holy shit. He’s actually got practice pictures. I knew these guys did the practicing. And I used to actually, I said, I’ve got some of the traits I used to practice in a mirror, practice smiling and stuff that I couldn’t master how I looked. It wasn’t that it wasn’t real. It’s just I wanted to make sure I knew what it looked like.

Jackson Noble: Everyone does that. That’s a little, uh, I wouldn’t say. I mean, this might sound classic psychopaths shit, but I don’t think that I actually have to do that. And that’s another thing I show you. I’m sure you want to get in though. But I do feel some emotion. Yeah, I mean, so a lot of people say “oh, when you’re talking about your book or directing, you get jittery and excited” and it is actually exciting. I feel like anything else, that’s more of a habit thing. It feels like a mirror. It’s like having posters in your house when you take them down. If you grew up in a room full of posters, you’re gonna want pictures in your house, I would assume, so it’s just that it looks naked without them. That’s not even using them anymore. But it’s just aesthetic for me. It’s just comforting to see there.

Dan Munro: Well, that and then the thing that really stood out to me was, I think quite a few of your videos, you show a clip where you’ve got what appears to be your brain scans. Showing the sort of the lack of activity and different lobes and such and one of the things I always go on about with my clients is whatever you are, if you own it, people will be okay with it, you can be fucking anything. But if you’re ashamed of it, that’s the frame they’ll take as well. If you’re autistic, you can either be fucking autistic, and people will be ok with it, or you can be like ”Oh, I’m sorry, I’m autistic and everybody will give me shit about it.” And so if you go to here’s my brain scan, it’s quite literally–Here’s the inside scoop, nothing’s left to be hidden.

Jackson Noble: Yeah. And that’s what came from people talking about, which I don’t know about. This is the one thing that people say that bothers me: he has dead eyes. And I just don’t think that’s true at all. I don’t really. I don’t know, I think that’s them getting into “Oh, he’s got a black soul and all that.” But then I thought, well, that actually is interesting, because that’s around the area in the brain, the prefrontal cortex, where the lack of activity exists. I could see sometimes if I’m not catching it, which I guess would be masking to an extent where it doesn’t look like there’s life there. That’s where I thought “Oh, well.” That’s even more and I         doubled down on it. As you said.

Dan Munro: Yeah, I’ve always found the ice thing interesting, because I worked with quite a few killers, and the eyes thing they turned on and off. They could be quite lively, engaged, I felt    we’re connecting. And then, especially once I got really well trained in managing manipulation, once I started calling out their tactics, after a while, the shadows would come down, I’d be like, “Oh, shit, I’m in a room with an animal.”  There’ll be times I just call it the crocodile, where I was just seeing nothing but lizards and I was just an object to them. But of course, this is on a spectrum. There are guys I’ve worked with who I really think felt nothing but rage and thrill. That was the limit of their emotions. That’s why their behavior is so extreme, it will make sense. From your content, I definitely get the impression that you’ve got a greater range. Oh, and I definitely want to explore that with you as fatherhood. I’m a new dad, and I was a really boring man before I had a kid. And as soon as she was born, I was flooded with feelings. I’m not completely off the scale. Yeah. But as soon as I saw that, there’s some video where we click your fingers when you want your kid to hold your hand if there’s a creep around or whatever. And I was just like, geez, I’m like that all the time walking around. I’m spotting the creeps, because I used to work with them and shit. And I was like, “Oh, that guy’s a pedo.”

Jackson Noble: Oh, are you talking about when they’re like that, you become a predator when you have a kid?

Dan Munro: Yeah, I can start to think about one. Yeah, it’s really weird. But it’s a defensive thing. I used to work with a lot of really predatory pedophiles and sex traffickers and stuff. And so, I know, their tactics. I know what they look for, it’s hard to explain, but I can see them. I can see the potential. It’s hard for me to turn that off. But, I was really interested. Tell me a bit about what it’s like for you to be a dad, how you feel about your kids, what father means to you, that         stuff.

Jackson Noble: It’s the only thing I think I truly care about other than wanting the game, a level of control in my own life and just, in general, and it’s, again, not to go back to this because I know that’s classic psychopaths shift and so I can shift it, but I was thinking I meant to say this earlier, I think what better job would who would be what better directors could you imagine then there would be a cycle time? Because think about it. They’re complete, you have your directing. You have to do that, so I think other than that, my kids are the only thing I can hear about and it really bothers me when people ask honestly, if I love my kids, it fucking infuriates me a little bit. Because it’s I don’t know, it just seems like such a dumb fucking question. But I get it, I guess from an outsider but, ya know, I’m the same way I didn’t really look at it, as I thought I felt love before anybody else and I’ll just use the way my grandma said it. She said, before I had my first daughter when I was 19. She said, you’re about to know what unconditional love is. And I said, “Well, I love you unconditionally.” And she said “No, you don’t.” And I was like, “Yes, I do. I love you.” And she’s like “No, you don’t.” When my daughter was born I was like, holy shit. I get the difference.

I didn’t realize at the time, but I don’t know if I’d necessarily die for my grandma. Because especially not now when I have a kid that I have to be there for. Yeah, but yeah, it was just instant, for sure. The thing that bothers me about it. Because I’m almost like when you’re telling, say, you’re out with the boys and an ex walks up and your wife doesn’t believe you. But you’re saying, “No, I didn’t cheat, I actually didn’t.” But then she starts questioning you to where you feel like you’re defending a lie when you’re actually telling the truth. That’s how it feels when I talk about loving my kids, which bothers me but again, it’s that even the worst psychopath ever has emotion. Because in order to manipulate, which, that’s a psychopath’s favorite thing to do, you have to have emotion. I’m not really too into it, because I don’t need to do anything other than marketing. I get my fix with that, but, um, to manipulate you have to empathize. That shows a level of empathy. And I think people don’t realize that, so even if it was the most severe case of psychopathy. Another thing is too, my children are extensions of myself. It reminds me of a Pitbull with their owner. Yep. They’re my owner.

Dan Munro: Yeah, one of the things that I’ve always been fascinated by is parents who don’t step up to protect their kid, and almost every parent thinks they will. But on an almost daily basis, they’ll let their kid down by people pleasing the teacher or not speaking up, when grandma steps over the line, that kind of thing. Whereas a psychopath will be like, “Oh, burn this whole world down just to keep your world a little bit more comfortable.” But again, for most people psychopath means serial killer. And they just don’t know the range they haven’t studied.    I said, I’ve been studying this my whole adult life. I’m so fascinated by the topic. Once somebody put me on to the idea that the sadistic harmful ones are a small niche of the grand spectrum. And that, can I, if you haven’t yet read the wisdom of psychopaths by Jim Dutton. He talks about how impossible it would be to be a surgeon, if you didn’t have at least a really strong sense.

Jackson Noble:You’d be emotional and shaken.

Dan Munro: And yeah, how would you cut open a baby’s body with a 90% chance of killing them? Unless you are just like this psychopath?

Jackson Noble: And you pray for a psychopath in that scenario.

Jackson Noble:Well, even I was wondering as you’re saying, who would make a better director? I look at the top directors and I’m a movie guy myself, and I do the behind the scenes shit. And I have no doubt. Tarantino is very psychopathic. I have no doubt that Spielberg and those guys that they’re all ruthless as fuck, that meant that they make people cry and that they control and have assertiveness. You can’t be a people pleaser and a top Hollywood director now.

Jackson Noble:Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny. You said that. Yesterday, someone was asking if I would put my kids in the movie? And I was like “oh, yeah, especially my son.” Because if I end up playing the Ripper, which I don’t know, if I will. After the trilogy, I’m going to do a book on his upbringing, the Ripper rising, which is actually very similar to mine. And I thought if I played the Ripper, it would be really interesting to go through and use my son as the younger Ripper because it would look crazy. He looks just like me. And I told him that I would make my children cry, to get a good shot. I would not do anything physically obviously, but I would scare them or do something to make them uncomfortable just to get that shot.That’s the level of ruthlessness I would go to, I mean, which is not I wouldn’t say rude. But some people would be like, “Whoa, dude, you’re gonna make your kid cry to get the shot of them really crying?” Yeah, it’ll be done in 10 minutes, and then they’ll have it forever. And I’ll be hell yeah, that’s sweet, that worked. But I think again, that’s where you have to go with it.

Dan Munro:Yeah, no, I have no doubt you have strong feelings towards your kids. And yeah, I think if someone was to get inside your body, it’d be a different experience, what they think, from their own experience of being a loving parent or whatever.

Jackson Noble:But in some areas, that’s the thing, because I see people that I’m, maybe not, bluntly, say it, but they claim that they are better parents. And I just think that I’ve mastered parenting more than anything in my life, actually. Because the same people that do that, as we were just talking about, I’ll drive by, with your kids right there. If I was a weirdo, I could just take your kid there. There should be no scenario where that happens, and a lot of people have literally called me a psychopath. But they didn’t even know it was my aunt’s neighbors. We had this big argument about this. And this is really, you’ll probably think this is interesting. They were saying, Can my oldest daughter go down to one of the friend’s houses or whatever. And I was like, “No, I know, you guys can play here. But I don’t want her to play. I’m not outside right now.       I don’t want her to be outside.” They’re, well, she’s a kid, you got to let her play outside. And I do get what people are saying, but my kids don’t play outside, I do not let them play outside. If I’m not outside, you’re not outside, I don’t care for the backyard with a 10 foot concrete wall. If I’m not outside, you are not outside. If you can’t see me, I can’t see you and it’s razor thin. That’s the only way it’s going to be. And I make up for it. We take them on a bunch of vacations a year and all that buying whatever they want, but you cannot play outside. If I’m not outside, this is not happening. And it’s the best time ever, because kids don’t even want to fucking be outside. But someone was, um, arguing with me about this. And they were like “well, you still have to let her be a kid and all this.” And I was like, “Well, she can’t be a kid if she gets taken.” And I mean, I don’t want to be the parent on the news that’s crying the call “I just wish I would have. If only I could go back and…” No! My thing is do shit.

If it’s the second time and you won’t make any mistakes or not nearly as many. I’m just going to think that it has already happened. And this is my second chance. And then this is another thing that she thought was interesting right before that. We were talking about how they were in Florida, they were on some trip in Florida. And she was talking about how she wouldn’t let her kid go in the ocean. And I remember asking, “Are you scared of the current?” And they were like “Oh, no sharks, I’ve always been so terrified of sharks.” And I thought that’s interesting, because the odds of a shark attack is one and I think 11 million. And that’s just getting better, you’ll still have a kid with one leg, or I think it No, it’s one in 250,000 or something like that, just to get better the odds of dying and not seeing your kid ever again, which would be the same case of your kid got taken, playing outside. It’s actually one in 11 Point 1 million for a shark attack, causing death, which is crazy. That’s huge odds. But the odds of getting abducted in your own neighborhood in Michigan is one in 300,000. You’re worried about the wrong sharks? That’s very interesting. You’re so scared of something that’s way less likely. But if you let your kid run around the block, you have a better chance of letting her swim in the ocean every day than if you let her ride her bike around the neighborhood.

Dan Munro:This is, I guess that’s really fucking interesting for me, because this is where people have to stop and think about things. So, in Daniel Kahneman’s book “Thinking Fast and Slow” one of the main points he makes is that people are just bad at statistical thinking. That’s where most of our cognitive biases can be under some realm of just bad statistical thinking. It’s why the casino stay in business. And this has been interesting, I’ve worked with people who are struggling psychologically, my whole adult career. And as a coach, now I help people with confidence problems. And I’d say a vast majority of them were sexually abused in some way as children. And I know, statistically speaking, that if I want my daughter to have a great life, the best thing I can do is make sure she doesn’t get sexually abused. That gives me the best odds just to not have that happen. It happens two out of three girls probably and maybe more if they sort of extrapolate the non reporting rates.

Jackson Noble:Yeah, and not to cut you off. But there’s a ripple effect with that too, because my mom was sexually abused by her grandpa from seven to 12. And so that rippled into my nurture, which, I mean, it worked in my favor, but, I mean.

Dan Munro: A legacy, it takes generations for the effects to wear off. It assumes everything goes well. And so It was an interesting moment for me, we’re on holiday in Italy. And Italians are really affectionate and friendly with strangers. It’s not unusual for old people to come and touch your kid on the head or whatever. Which for someone like me, I’m just like red flagging the whole fucking time. Anyway, the ones next to us bought her a gift. And I ended up having this big argument. Well, more of a debate with my miss, where I was just like, that would be nice behavior. But everything they’re doing so far is checklist down to the perfect fucking grooming strategy, exactly what someone grooming would also do. And that’s the real threat of grooming: it looks like nice behavior. And so I was now starting to be really sort of standoffish and just uncomfortable to the point of rudeness with these neighbors. But the point was, I wanted to let them know that Dad’s watching, and yeah, that’s not about your feelings. If they were grooming I’m presenting this as high risk, and this is not the family you’re gonna get away with this with.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, I agree with that. 100%. But a lot of people wonder, go with it. And a lot of people, I don’t understand that, because I don’t risk being wrong. That’s one of those things where confirmation bias is very necessary. And again, it starts with, you said people even get sexually abused. I don’t know, perfectly, but I know that it’s usually people that they know,

Dan Munro:  Oh, it’s family most of the time.

Jackson Noble: So, no one’s off the table. I’ve never once actually had my kids be babysat. Not once. I have three kids by three different moms. Obviously, we all get along great, too. But, obviously there’s instances where they have to… but I don’t trust my own Grandpa just because he didn’t kill his dad. Actually. I think that’s bizarre, that that would be the thing. It would be the weightless situation. My mom wasn’t in, everyone knows better. And they know and I still don’t know…no one will tell me what actually happened if he went to jail if he died, no one will tell me. But I do know that my grandpa didn’t do anything about it. And that blows my fucking mind. That would be…if one of my kids got abused by my dad or stepdad. Yeah, 100% I’m throwing everything away at that moment. 100% I’m not calling the cops. I just don’t trust him just off of a character thing. And I’m sure you agree with that. It’s just at that point, you have to just do it. You know what I mean? I just don’t trust them. But even people like my step dad or my real dad, if they want the kids for them, it’s…no, it’s not even that it’s not even to the point where I don’t even have to really think about the abuse thing actually too much. Because it’s to the point where for any reason, even if you don’t watch them enough for, again, statistically, I know that they’re always safer next to me. And so that’s just the only thing that I allow.

Dan Munro:  Look, it’s something I battle with all the time because like you, I think I want her to have freedom and childhood and so on. But not to the point where I’m actually putting her at risk of the real dangerous stuff. I’m happy for her to climb to the top of the tree. Even though she’s a bit young for it or whatever. That’s not what I fear. I’m scared of the dude watching her on the playground. That’s what I’m worried about.

Jackson Noble: Because they’re there. They are there. It’s very eerie to think about. But yeah, that’s where I think I’ll just be damned. It’s not happening. And that’s the thing too. My mom always told me this. She said: “Kids are adults a lot longer than they are kids.” And I just, I don’t know, that it stuck with me. My kids don’t give a shit. They’re super happy. They’re at the point where they don’t even want to go outside because they know. My five year old daughter has even seen the movie “Lovely Bones”. That’s her favorite movie. My five year old. She just painted a “Lovely Bones” painting. I was asking her and she says: “Yeah, Mr. Harvey doesn’t look bad, but he’s bad.” And I’m like: “That’s not wrong.”

People say: “You shouldn’t let your kids watch horror movies.” Again, it’s even with that, not to go back to that. But the best thing for a kid to watch is to not think shit sunshine and rainbows immediately because you again, you can’t always be next to them, and I can have air tags on all their shoes and do the whole nine yards with that. But it’s just like, why don’t you go touch the stove. And the reason I even tell my kids is you don’t touch the stove because it’s stupid to touch the stove. And you know that it’s stupid to do that because you’re gonna get hurt. It’s the same reason it’s stupid to me. For kids, I mean, obviously not to see sexy and stuff like that. Or maybe brutal, gory scenes. I get that. But to not let a kid watch a movie that provokes fear in them, I think is dumber than not letting them touch the stove.

To be honest, I just think, what is that doing? It’s just given them a leg up on realizing that it’s even the dude in the Mickey Mouse costume. He could be a weirdo. And that maybe that’s why he’s in that costume. I just think I just get really defensive about the horror genre, because I think it’s so even with a woman thing, and with that, it’s just everyone’s always giving me shit. “All your kids are obsessed with horror, you push it on them”, and I’m just thinking, that’s what I do. I mean, they’re, that’s all their dad does. They’re good. Kids want to be like their dad. But also, I just think it’s a really good thing because it’s,again, the movie “Prisoners”. Have you seen that one?

Dan Munro:  Yeah.

Jackson Noble: I haven’t watched those movies. I can easily make them watch those. Because it’s how quick that happened. They played on the RV, boom, they’re gone. I mean, and I was like, “this is just a movie. In real life, I never see you again. If you want that to happen, go ahead and go play outside.” I let them make their own decisions, which really is mine. But again, what is the harm in that? You can go talk to them about Stranger danger, but you can’t let them watch a movie that makes them afraid of the dark? Yes, you should be.

Dan Munro:  Yeah, I think we have some similar thoughts on that. But I know, a lot of other people don’t.

Jackson Noble:  It’s interesting. I just don’t see the argument. I don’t even get the argument. I don’t understand the argument. I don’t get it. But then again, there’s a lot I think that you probably saw in this Tik Tok video where they were asking a bunch of people: “Would you kill for your kids?” And everyone’s like: “Oh, no.” And I was like: “What?” So, I guess it’s those types of people that don’t agree with that. I would think it’s just, it’s just stupid to me to not, I would love to actually have a separate thing and talk to someone who disagrees with that. And just, I just would love to pick their brain on why they think that’s not effective. It just blows my mind, honestly.

Dan Munro:  Well, I’ve had the unfortunate experience of dealing with the families, not only of the victims, but of the perpetrators, and just how shocked they are about who it was. It was their brother or their son or whatever, and then sort of struggling to reconcile that the person they trusted was this monster. And what they taught me more than anything else is that I can’t trust my own trust. And that I can fully trust them and be fully wrong. And that’s how I need to operate, I need to operate on the side of my judgment that might be off, and I need to act accordingly. And most people, they won’t accept that they can get the judgment wrong. And that’s how, I mean, this is why predators love places like the church and being a doctor or something. Where it’s really, because people are going to trust their trust, people are gonna go well, I trust them.

Jackson Noble:  I never heard that “I couldn’t trust my trust.” I love that.

Dan Munro: I just saw too much counter evidence that people are judging who the threat is. And the funny thing was, it means that I just behave in a way where I don’t need to get it right. I can just live in a way where I don’t I don’t need to make judgment calls. I just don’t allow her to be in a situation where I’m hoping…

Jackson Noble:  I agree with that. I literally agree with that. 100%. It’s    I don’t even need to worry about being…the odds of me getting bitten by a shark is fucking zero if I don’t go in the ocean. The odds of my kids getting taken when they’re under my watch. It’s impossible for that to happen.

Dan Munro: I’ll tell you what, probably the best strategy you can use. I’ll just share this from experience if you teach your kids not to keep secrets. Because the predators need secrecy. And if they know that kid’s gonna tell you, they’re not going to do it. This is not so much snatching in a van but more the family groomer type. That’s, again, that’s been something that causes controversy when I’m telling off grandparents: “We don’t do the ‘you’ve got to keep this a secret from mom and dad’”. We did this thing with her where if somebody offers her a treat and a secret she’ll get double from us if she comes and tells us. Or, someone tries to give her lollies if she says “no” and comes to us then she gets twice as many lollies. So we just made it super rewarding and it’s so nice, the other day I’ve seen it a few times now it’s really paid off. She’s only three and a half. And some really just nice old lady, and I know she’s fine, will come in the shop “oh would you like a lollipop?”. Straightaway, my daughter is super defensive like “go away” and then she comes and tells us and gets a reward and I am like: “fuck yeah!”

Jackson Noble:And even in those cases, as you said, not everyone’s a monster, you can tell right away nice old lady, whatever. But it’s like: “no, still do it.” If you’ll do it to her–you will to others too. The same thing happened with my daughter, before we would go to Coney Island, it’s a restaurant that was by our house. And they would have different characters, be dressed up in suits and all that. And my mom and I were making a joke. And she was like “Do you think she doesn’t want to take a picture with Mickey Mouse? Because he’s fucking six feet tall, and she thought he was small?” I was like: “No, I don’t think she trusts him.” And she’d be excited watching him go around the other kids and because they bring their kids there and stuff, but when he got to her, she was like “fuck that.” She was like “I don’t want it.” And I’m like: “That’s my girl, dude.”

Dan Munro: And that’s, yeah, a lot of people really struggle with that. They call it rude or something like that.

Jackson Noble: I’d rather be rude and not wrong in that scenario.

Dan Munro: Well, dude, I hope my girl grows up with the courage to be rude. Because most of the stuff I see in the work I do, is directly related to people being unwilling to displease others and, and from compromisers they make. It really does lead to disastrous outcomes.

Jackson Noble: That’s another thing that was I think, with psychopaths that are parents is– I don’t really care at all. If someone is offended, not even in a rude way, where it’s actually like “I don’t give a fuck how you feel.” I know, I actually can’t even care if I tried. If you are put off by me saying you can’t watch– I don’t even care.

Dan Munro:  Well, let’s zero in on this. And you can tell me if you if we need to wrap up the call or whatever.

Jackson Noble:  You’re good. I’ve got plenty of time.

Dan Munro:  Okay, cool. Because I think the number one thing that we can learn from psychopathy is the magical state of not really caring what other people think. And as you say, it’s not that defiant “I don’t give a fuck what people think.” Because usually that means the opposite when someone’s been like that. They are trying to look like they don’t care, which means that they do. But I understand, and I know this from my own experience, something I’ve cured in myself. Once I learned to lean into some of my more psychopathic traits, I’ve gotten to the point where I just upset the entire room to do what I think is right now. Whereas in my old life, I couldn’t even dream of that, I did the exact opposite. I compromised constantly. It might be hard for you to, I guess, to teach it or to pass it on if it’s natural to you. But let’s just start with the overview: what’s your understanding of, first off, what other people do this where they care what others think. And they’re emotionally affected by the opinions and judgments of others? Versus what it’s like to be you?

Jackson Noble:  Um, yeah, my girlfriend always wants to know that she’s always like: “How do you just not care?” And I’m like: “Why are you being so emotional?” And that’s a guy girl dynamic, I guess, more than more than you think. But I’m like: “Why do you care?” She’s like “You are a psychopath. Obviously you don’t care.” And then I go “Here we go with the psychopaths shit.” But yeah, I just don’t understand. My God, what was the question?

Dan Munro:  What do you think it’s like to be other people? And how’s that different to how it is to be you in this regard?

Jackson Noble: I think other people…When you’re trying to make storage on your phone, you delete the things you don’t need. Or you weigh out the things that you need more than the things you don’t need. And obviously, if you ask anybody, they all know, hey, do you need this? That negative view on yourself based on what random person you’ll never meet said. Or do you need camaraderie and companionship that’s going to impact your confidence? Which one do you need? They know what they need. But, I don’t know. They just keep those in… again, once your phone is so full, if you don’t delete anything, you can’t take anything new. And so that’s kinda it’s actually I’ve never even thought about it like that. It’s actually a good analogy. But yeah, just delete the files you don’t need. No. And I guess it does sound okay, easier said than done. But I don’t understand what someone gains from self doubt. I do not understand it. And I don’t understand how people don’t realize projection either. Because nine times out of 10, and this is not to say that no one’s going to be critical of you that cares about you. No, but no one’s going to criticize you that’s doing better than you, not in the way that’s given you self doubt.

If once I’m a director, or even now, I’ve even seen people that are on their third book and they’re asking me for advice on marketing and it’s my first book, which is asked backwards. But I don’t even… there’s nothing bad I can say to him I’m just “Well honestly, to be honest with you,  ,    you’re not marketing at all. You have this bookshelf behind you. You got a really single mom type of niche but you’re selling these spunk splatter punk, dark romance novels. I don’t see where that’s correlating with an audience. They’re just seeing someone in a sweater. You’d be better off  role playing, getting killed on an edit or something or making it entertaining.”

Play the part a little bit, sell it. Make changes in your aesthetic. But, my point is that I’m giving them advice and telling them what they’re doing wrong, but it’s in a way to where I’m not telling them “Why are you even doing that for? You’re not gonna get anywhere with that! I just do not think that even of other people. And I don’t think that’s a psychopath thing at all. I just think that people who, for example, if someone was asking you about starting a podcast, you could look at it and be: “That ain’t the way to do it, bro.” But you’re not gonna be…”You’re never gonna make it with podcasts, you’re never going to do it.” You would never say that. You’d be like: “Ah, that doesn’t work, bro. But I would change it up and do it like this.” To be constructive.

People don’t realize when someone is projecting on them. I think that’s number one. Think of any time, and we’ve done it, everyone’s guilty of it. The people that leave comments on videos, I’ve never done that. But, there’s been times where I was like: “Look at this fucking guy.” Think of the place you were in, when you said that, you weren’t fucking happy. You got to think of the projection. Yeah, I mean, what is someone actually doing right here? Is this even personal or not? And I think that’s where I’m better at realizing it’s not personal, because it’s not either way. But I think other people could probably take from it. And that way, when someone is doubting you, think that you could do it on your own. But I think it comes more from accepting negative views from other people. If you just don’t accept it, because, they’re projecting which they are, it’s not even delusional they are, no one’s just gonna come up to you, and tell you a bunch of bullshit about yourself that doesn’t know you or does know you if they’re not unhappy themselves.  I think that is a huge thing that no one talks about just understand when someone’s projecting on you, and don’t fucking allow it. I’m not gonna allow it. Even girls in my life, if they’re having an attitude or something, I just don’t want to be around you. You’re throwing me off. That doesn’t serve me at all, and I can’t serve you. You don’t serve me. You don’t. I mean, it’s trying to help me help you. But yeah, and I think I’ll stop there. But I just think it’s more just know that they’re projecting, and that it doesn’t help you, you’re gonna let this person having a shitty day, take it out on you. And then you’re gonna hold that. That’s bizarre to me.

I often tell people, I don’t know if this is a cyclical thing or not, but high five the mirror in the morning. I’ll even show it as an example, I used to do this, I would go like this. Because my point is that when people are having a bad day, and they just put all that shit on you, you’re carrying it with you. And when you wake up, you have a fresh chance. Think of the way most people talk to a stranger is very positive. You got this dude, you are not gonna be with it forever, tomorrow will be a better day, but you won’t do it to yourself. That’s really weird. Because to a certain point, you’re not even able to talk to people in a kind way. Because you’re so unkind to yourself that you’re miserable.

I always say, again, this is a psycho thing, I guess, maybe a little bit, but there’s a new person in the mirror. And it’s their two different people. In the morning, when you wake up, you’re aware you’re you. And the you that’s in the mirror is everything you’re projecting on from other people’s projections. You’re dumping this whole load of shit on someone who’s a stranger every day, you can wake up and do something, people wake up and go sober. 10 years straight out of nowhere  by dumping all that bullshit onto this new person that’s in the mirror, you’re fucking yourself over, and now you’re doing it to yourself. I do a thing I tell people to do a thing, you just walk up and do this. And just tap the mirror. You don’t have to do a hard thing, it can be a high five that, or just do that. And just literally High Five yourself in the mirror every day. And what that does, I think is you can fake a smile. And I know there’s more than anyone you can fake a lot of emotions. But you can never remember a time when you high five, someone where it wasn’t really joy, when it wasn’t actually you don’t high fives don’t come from, alright, bro, I’ll see you later.

I think that this might just be mastering that. If you high five yourself every, when you do that, it’s insinuated with a whole lifetime of positive feedback. If you just high five yourself, subconsciously, I think eventually, it might take weeks or months. Eventually though, I think you start to see almost a physical reminder. It’s like when you laugh at yourself. To a certain point, it         lets you, I don’t know, I wouldn’t say forgive yourself or love yourself, but just give yourself a fighting chance. Tell yourself: ”What’s up, bro? Good morning.” It’s just a reminder, but also, I think, it does something wiring wise when you do that over and over and I think it just builds up, self esteem maybe.

Dan Munro:  Yeah, all of this what you’re saying aligns with my own transition from self-doubting to not, and from caring what other people think, to not really giving it much of a thought. There’s so many factors. So one is, you quite quickly identified it, how invalid their feedback is, and this is assuming you’re really actually getting negative feedback, and I’m imagining it. As you’re saying, if somebody’s doing that they’re in a bad position and projecting not this is accurate feedback about who you are. Seeing how sort of just logical you are about it you are. There’s no way someone doing well is gonna say something this cruel. One thing I say is confident people are never cruel.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, that is what people get that mixed up. Someone doing better than you, they can still tell you to do something different or that you’re doing the wrong thing, but they’re not going to be cruel about it.

Dan Munro: There’s a difference between helpful feedback, and judgment and bullying. And, and often the vibe, you can just feel the difference. Especially if you asked for it and the person is trying to help.

Jackson Noble: As you said, it seems so hard to teach because it just sounds so obvious. It’s   as if someone walks up and they’re just a dick. It’s a drunk guy at a bar. It just seems very, very obvious. But again, I guess it’s not because a lot of people just don’t think they can do whatever they want. It blows my mind, not in the sense of lawlessness, but I don’t understand how every single person doesn’t just think I could do whatever I want. That’s the part I just logically don’t understand at all. It blows my mind. I don’t, I can’t say I just don’t get it. It’s just that, God, you’re choosing that, you. You are comfortable with that for some reason. And again, I think that’s because your phone, your drive is full. You don’t know how to shut none of that off. And I think the High Five thing I’ve never even heard don’t talk about that. But I’ve done that for a while, it’s a good way to clean the slate every day.

Dan Munro:  Well, I think it’s symbolic of how you treat yourself? How you talk to yourself is similar to how an encouraging, loving best friend would treat you and talk to you, rather than more as an enemy. And the way I’ve seen people treat themselves and it’s actually a coaching work I do. It’s their sadism.

Jackson Noble: Yes. And it’s so obvious. You’re taking in projections from other people. And now you’re doing it on yourself. And now they’ve recruited one, and you’re gonna do that show to other people. No one likes people like that. I think it might be, it might have started as a masking thing. But now, as you said, it seems logical, just don’t allow that. With the self-doubt thing, realize when it’s projection and when it’s feedback. And I mean, because there’s a huge difference.

Dan Munro:  that this is something I had to learn manually what you’ve got as a natural trait. And one of the things I had to learn is how to be skeptical. One of the questions I always asked is, did I ask this person for feedback? And if the answer is no, then they’re forcing this on me. Who does that? Right? Why would they do that? If they’re going from a healthy, rational, accurate place? And they wouldn’t, I’ve never had a confident person try and force their views on me. I’ve only had insecure people. I think Denzel Washington says like, no one above you is gonna hate on you.

Jackson Noble: And yeah, that’s true. They’re gonna think you can do it too.

Dan Munro:And I thought, there must be some exceptions. And I just went through my whole life. And I was like, find one person above me who gave me shit, and I can’t bring up a single memory.

Jackson Noble: Nothing ever happened. It’s never happened. And that’s the thing a lot of the negative people will defend and they’ll be: “No, my boss tells me all the time…” Yeah, but that’s a different thing. That’s just the way that they try to find ways to make it sound…just make themselves more comfortable in letting that happen. But yeah, I can’t think of one either. I did that too. I’m trying to really think about it now. There’s not cases where that happens. And it makes sense why that doesn’t happen. The same reason we don’t do it.

Dan Munro:What about, and this might not happen to you all that often but, say rejection from women perhaps. If you make a move, someone says no or you’re doing some sort of sales and marketing thing and you get a “no”. What’s your internal reaction to that when that happens?

Jackson Noble: Um, I don’t have that happen. I orchestrated it to not happen. Actually. Now Yeah, it sounds weird. But nowadays guys don’t have to actually talk to girls, they can just swipe up on their story. And that can be their version of shooting their shot. If the girl doesn’t respond, you don’t really lose much, because you didn’t actually say, “Hey, do you want a date?” And she said, “No”, she did not respond, you can act like that’s not what you were even doing. You don’t I mean, you get what I mean, with the emoji thing, though. If she’s, Hey, what’s up and engages, if you swipe up some heart eyes, and then she engages with you, it’s cool. But if she doesn’t, it’s not necessarily that that’s what you were trying to do. It doesn’t feel like rejection. You can just         back off from it.

I do it in a way, it’s where I just don’t approach anyone first. I mean, and again, it sounds weird, because you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take but, if you’re good at it, you don’t have to. You can make people come to you. For example, and I’ve done this because I don’t  like rejection. Actually, I really don’t at all, but I just don’t allow it. I just realized. If me and one of my buddies are sitting right here, and we have some girls that are going to come over, the advice that I’m going to give him is “Do not be pushy, do not engage at all.” This is what I would say, be like: “I like your eyes” or “damn your hair suits you.” and then look away.

Engage with her enough, where it’s just a compliment, swiping up on some heart eyes, and then completely turn away. And the thing is, again, you can use the statistics and the numbers on this. And girls are really used to guys being pushy. You stand out immediately when you’re not.       I would be, I would just say something, give her a compliment. Or be like, “Hey, what’s up?”, “Holy shit, you’re really pretty!”, and then look away. And then they’re gonna question you just get into the mind of a girl. What are they gonna do? They’re gonna be questioning was that genuine? Was he? Was he trying to fuck? Or was he actually being nice? And that even if just don’t make eye contact? They’ll come to you. If they don’t come to you. They don’t, but they probably will. Because you’re not being pushy. And if they don’t, you didn’t get rejected cuz you didn’t even do anything. So it works really well. And then, for an example, even if I give a girl a compliment, and then I’m talking to my buddy, and they try to say something I would be like “Hold on one second. I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be rude. What are you saying, bro?” And I’ll act like I do not just act completely uninterested. They’re not used to that. But in that way, you’re not getting rejected. You’re doing enough to show interest. And you’re opening up the conversation, but you’re also making her question if you even want her or not. And females are super competitive. That’s why they don’t work well together. It’s interesting. You get what I mean?

No, it’s ass backwards. But I’ve seen it work with people. I’ve actually seen it work. My buddy. I had two friends. One was recent one was flee. I had one of my baby mamas come over, she brought her friend, Sequoia. And this is so funny, dude. They’re too, they’re from the hood and shit. They’re very similar dudes. And so the girls walk in the house, obviously, I got my baby mama, but Sequoia walks in. I got two buddies, she has to pick. And my buddy Willie walks right up, and he’s “What are you trying to do tonight?” And she was like, “Can I sit my fucking purse down?” What the fuck, dude. And then she told me, she was like Yeah, I’m not gonna lie. Or my baby mama told me she was  “Sequoia wanted to get with fleet she likes that he had dreads instantly when she saw him. She was like “Oh, yeah.” But then as soon as he talked, and said that it was off putting and now she didn’t want to.

And so I was telling recently, well, now here’s your shot, bro. All you have to do now is shut the fuck up. She’s gonna pick you because you’re the last one. You’re gonna mean she’s gonna pick you. And that and that was trying to tell him, that’s crazy. Wouldn’t that just drive you nuts? If you knew, damn, I had that in the bag. And I opened my mouth that would drive me crazy. It’s just to be stoic, and they’ll just come to you. And another thing is, obviously, put yourself in a position where you’re around more girls than guys. Because then the dynamic flips and they’re going to compete for your attention, not the other way around. If there are 10 dudes in a room and three girls, the dynamics is all fucked up. I wouldn’t even put myself in that type of dynamic. But yeah, if you go around with, there’s maybe three or four girls, there’s only two of you. They’re gonna they’re gonna start getting competitive. And it’s not even nothing to do with you. It’s just the way they are. Not in a disrespectful way. Is it true.

Dan Munro: A lot of the coaching I do is helping guys with dating. And what you just outlined, which is almost a mirror of the approach that I teach, which is, you have to initiate, but you’ve got to make them work. And you have to be willing, you have to be willing to lose them and genuinely willing to lose them. It can’t be faked.

Jackson Noble: And you will feel better because you didn’t put yourself out there too much, If it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen whether you’re smooth, or whether. I mean, you’re always better off saying less in that situation. Always. Don’t be rude. And obviously open it up to say something, but they’re gonna question. It becomes more of a competition thing. They just want to win you over at a certain point. And that’s what you’re essentially trying to do when you talk too much. And that’s never gonna work that way because they’re so used to that.

Dan Munro: Yeah, there’s always one thing about psychopathy that I found fascinating, especially when I struggled with women: psychopaths are notoriously promiscuous, and really don’t sort of just struggle in that area like I used to. And I sort of have a look at it. And while a lot of it was sort of manipulation, or so on, there were some elements that were showing, were I was always going wrong, the neediness and the trying too hard. Kind of forcing it.

Jackson Noble: Caring too much, too.

Dan Munro: That was, that was my main problem. That’s most people’s main problem, not just in dating, but in all elements of life. Yeah.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, it really is manipulative. I have this really interesting thought on manipulation, that not being manipulative is more manipulative than being manipulative. It really is mastery.

For example, I’m 29 and I’ve never been to a strip club. I’ve never been to a club, concert, I just do not go in public. I’m not gonna date a girl that goes, this is why I don’t get controlling guys either, because they’ll try to control girls. And it’s…you don’t really have to. You can have boundaries just like them. Asmatter of fact, the girl that’s here right now, I could actually bring her here. She’ll tell you. Oh, she was a rave girl. And whatever. She came over from Arizona. We had a good time and all that. And then out of nowhere, I was like “Yeah, I don’t think I can ever date you though. Because you go to raves. I just couldn’t do that” And she’s like “Whoa, what?” And I was like “Well, no, I’m just saying, I’m gonna spare us both the time because I’m telling you three months from now, I’m going to get a little more possessive, obviously, I’m not. Once we start to fall in love with each other, we’re going to get a little more… I’m going to change what I’m saying, I’m not going to be the way I am now.”

And it was honest, though. And then I was like “I also don’t want to tell you what to do. I would just, if I see that, you do something that I know would be an issue. I just don’t want to waste either of our time”, if that makes sense. And then eventually, she just picked and not raved.       So, it’s literally being honest, and not being manipulative at all.

In the back of my head. I knew it would work. I mean, so it was robbery, she fucking can’t stand that. But she knows. It’s just she’s given that it’s so effective. And I mean, but at the same time, it’s true. It’s just this thing we’re talking about with being open about the psychopathy thing. Once you get good at it, you realize you don’t even have to do it. I can’t stand when girls are like, “Oh, you’re just trying to manipulate me.” I’m like,  “No, that’s too easy. I’d rather you do it yourself.” And that sounds fucked up. But at a certain point, you can’t even call it manipulation, because it’s just…I’m just being honest about who I am and what my intentions are and what I’m gonna get mad about. And yeah, I might be doing it while you’re in a heightened love state of    excitement, and we’re going to hot tubs and vacations and shit. That’s a little strategic. But other than that, it’s picking the time to tell someone that is obviously a huge part of it.

But yeah, it’s just they’ll, again, they’ll weigh it out. They’ll be like “Well, shit, I can be a stay at home mom, he can teach me how to have a platform he can fucking pay off.” Because I’m very traditional guy: the guy provides and all that. And so they start to think “wait, damn, but I’d rather go to raves or be with someone who’s fucking honest and tells me that they don’t like that shit.” And I’m the same way with girls too. I am very very possessive. I can’t protect you if you’re gone,  But that’s another thing too, I don’t go out. Again, why would I date someone that does? I don’t go to have guys night to stay out overnight. Why would I be with someone that does? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s a drug addict, being with someone who’s not a drug addict. It’s not gonna work.

Dan Munro: Oh, man, you’re preaching to the choir. And it’s actually I’ll send it through to you my, my most recent book, I talked about this moment where it was, again, in the height of love with my now wife, where she was like, “I could never date a guy who’s got a history of drugs”, and my next move was to tell her about my extensive history with drugs. She just decided, okay, well, that’s not my standard anymore and I changed my mind. And it was amazing to me, I eventually developed a framework that I call pushing them away with honesty. And like you, the reason I, once I found honesty, gave up on manipulating. Well, one of the reasons is that it’s way more effective with honesty than any thoughtful strategic deception as evident for me. And it’s so easy. I don’t need to think about doing it.

Jackson Noble: And not trying to manipulate versus being honest. It’s almost like taking a painkiller. It’s just delaying the inevitable.

Dan Munro: Exactly. But yeah, as I said, I had to manually get to a mindset, or a viewpoint that you’ve kind of got naturally. It’s really interesting because if people are listening too carefully, if they can get over the serial killer–What did he call it? Stereotype?–This is what the viewpoint of someone minus self doubt looks like. Without them. This is how they see the world. And you can actually adopt that. You can.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, anyone? I think anyone could. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Munro: Look, man, we could keep going and going. And I may have to have another conversation with you. But we’ll start wrapping it up. Obviously, and I’m keen to read your book as well, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your work and how people get hold of it, that         thing.

Jackson Noble: It’ll be out September 1. And I’m going to do… it’ll be Jack the Ripper. It’ll be a modern day remake. And then September 1, that’ll be out. And I don’t know the exact dates, but within 60 days, from that date, the whole trilogy will come out. It’ll be Jack the Ripper, and then there’ll be a book called “Up the hill”, which is Jill’s prequel, and then there’ll be a Jack and Jill.       it’s making Jack and Jill story too. But Jack is Jack the Ripper. You know what I mean, and Joe is… it’s just seemed like a cool angle, and then Jill and up the hill is like escaping sex trafficking. And so she becomes that towards men for different reasons, and so they have a lot of similarities. And Jill is just the name she just at the end of the train station, what’s your name, she has to make a name up off the top of her head and Jill’s the obvious Jack.  I mean, so it’s when Jill is born. And so that goes into Jack and Jill too. Yeah, it’d be a whole trilogy, and it’ll be out before Christmas, for sure. And then after that, I’m going to do the Ripper rising, which I’m not sure when but it’ll be an extension of the trilogy. But yeah, it’ll be available just on my website, or just not all my socials in my bio. I just have links to and stuff.

Dan Munro: Cool. Yeah. And I’ll post those links. And yeah, it’ll be a fascinating read, as you say, I think what some of my favorite books, or biographies by gangsters and killers. And so I    like to see from their perspective, but even top athletes and stuff like that, when there’s Bravo, bravo, two zero by Andy McNab. He’s a US soldier. And he later was featured in the wisdom of psychopaths, because he’s highly psychopathic. And so when you read about this guy, who was captured and tortured by Jihadease and stuff, and just how casually he talks about getting beaten up every day. And it’s a pseudonym, but yeah, he wrote it. And you get to see what it’s like to be sort of one of those top soldiers, special forces, but with very little in terms of remorse, self doubt, anxiety. Just a very, very ruthless dude. And there’s an interesting story about him. Actually, where the author of “Wisdom of psychopaths” was hanging out with him in a bar, and some guys got rowdy, and he’s not a big guy. And he just goes up to them. And he’s just like “hey, you guys need to put your drink down and leave or you’re gonna see violence, like you’ve never seen it before.” And four big guys just walked out because of the look on his face.

Jackson Noble: Just the way they can feel it.

Dan Munro: You realize Holy shit, I’m in a room with a dangerous person. You know, like, something about the lizard brain? Okay, this is not worth it.

Jackson Noble: Yeah. Interesting.

Dan Munro: I think it’s fascinating. I think what I love is, I don’t believe when people say they have a disorder, or they might say that you have antisocial personality disorder or something like that. What I’d say is, it’s only a disorder if you’re not making it work for you, if you’re making it work for you, then disorder is just not the right word for it. And I don’t have any classifications and they’re highly disordered. What are they? And you seem to have made it work for you. Not only have you found it and accepted it,

Jackson Noble: Quite convenient actually.

Dan Munro: yeah, well it seems for you to turn it into horror writing, marketing your own work. I mean, that’s exactly what I’d advise a psychopath to do.

Jackson Noble: Because you get your whole fix just off, even if someone wants to get into    the whole thing. Even if you’re not yet crazy violent tensile, you can just recreate it through. Yeah, just gives you every fix that you need. As far as persuasion marketing it work for you not having no one telling you what to do. It just all works perfectly.

Dan Munro: Yeah, I’m stoked to see, because, like I said, I used to work with criminals and i was like “dude, you, you could be doing so much more with this power. You guys?” Some of them figured it out. One guy became a prisoner advocate, he used to sue the Department of Corrections. And he was so good in court that he won a lot of the time he wasn’t even a lawyer. And I was just like, you see, you see what you could have done? Yeah, you didn’t have to be a bank robber.

Jackson Noble: you’re right. Have you seen the movie “Blow” with Johnny Depp?

Dan Munro: Yeah, I think a very long time ago. But yeah.

Jackson Noble: I had a moment when I was younger. And I was telling my mom like “Oh, I’m good at what I do with whatever it was…something criminal”, and she hit me with one of those. She’s like, “you would have been good at anything.” It’s a mom thing. But I was like, “holy shit!” And I started thinking about it, I think I could.

But that’s where the self doubt…I told my girl, this because she was trying to find her niche. And I was if you can’t find one, a podcast is a good way to do it. Because it’s just open to anything. What’s Joe Rogan’s niche, he doesn’t have one, he just, his niche is all the niches. And she was saying, “Well, you have your thing.” And I was like, but this is a new thing. I had a falling before. But these are all new people that started in December. It hasn’t been a year. And so I was telling her, I could do it as a joke, you could tell me to do literally anything. And I would just show you in 60 days that I could get some type of..you know what I mean? Edge in it? And I mean, because it’s just very easy if you just think you can do it. That’s all it is.

It’s actually interesting, too, because I can tell, I don’t know, I’m sure you can but even talking when you said you have psychopathic traits, I can definitely tell, we have so many similarities. And I was actually wondering, do you think yours is because they say nature and nurture? Do you think that some of your traits came from nurture, from talking, or from being around people like that?

Dan Munro: Yeah, I’d say I’m heavy on the nurture side. First was the Machiavellian manipulation thing. I learned that to fit in at school. And I became the master of being the funny cool kid. And that wasn’t that. I was a method actor. And I was able to witness myself being something that I’m not in just a puppet master from behind. I knew I could walk into a room. And I know the kind of humor that would make everyone in that room laugh. And I could read everyone and I, looking back now that cycle is fucked. But then when, yeah, when I got to the Department of Corrections, and I was around these, really, after a wall around really dangerous people. And actually, the fucking staff, the politics and everything in the staff was as bad in terms of manipulating gameplay. And I was getting trained by really top forensic psychiatrists and psychologists around manipulation and managing it, which actually, of course, taught me the other side of it as well. But then, I think when I got to the point where I was managing really high risk guys who did really dangerous shit, and you had to make snap decisions that could or could not put lives at risk. I am just this thing. I found this thing in me where I was like everyone else is panicking. And I’m just like this is just a mathematical calculation. I don’t, I don’t get it. All right.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. Yeah.

Dan Munro: But then when my daughter was born, I burst into tears. So, I’m not like… In my 20s, I was very anxious. But there are certain things. I don’t know what it’s to be afraid. I genuinely have no, yeah, see, that emotion. I don’t know what that feels. I don’t miss people when they’re not around.

Jackson Noble: Yeah, that’s one too. Yeah. I’m very. Yeah, I’d say that in mind. That’s interesting, too, that you started the thing about, walking into a room. A long story short, I had a buddy at work who was the boss, but hey, we’ll pick that all people already are and they just acted so sluggish all the time. And then they were letting me take naps. The boss gave me some of his Vicodin. I could call off and he would mark it that I didn’t keep punching for me when I wasn’t at work. And they’re, bro, me and you are the same exact fucking person I was you want, why don’t you just get away with this shit. And one of the guys that I worked with, he had worked for me in different places, in my early 20s. And he was like, “Dude, he was like that at the last job” and I’m like, “Do you not get it? Act like you like him!” That’s all you have to do bro. If you notice the only difference between you is if the guy the boss’s name was Rick. I was engaged with him about anything. I’m like “Oh, no shit do you really? Oh, wow.” It’s just you’re acting like you don’t like him? Why would he like you? Name anyone you know that likes you that you don’t like. There isn’t anybody. No one wants to lose a supporter or a fan or whatever, whatever you want to call it. But I was like, Dude, it’s not that hard. It’s easier to act like you’d    and I can stand the boss. But he bring up anything fucking 70s Rock, I’m like, “Oh, I fucking    Leonard”. You could find a way dude. Just make him always make the job of doing, just be giddy towards him that he’s gonna naturally let you get away with more because he thinks you better friends on his terms. And it just seems like it’s the same thing. It’s just like walking in and           acting almost like a chameleon, in a way.

Dan Munro:Yeah, Paul’s definitely a chameleon. But like I said, I’m not all the way there, I have bouts of depression or chronic anxiety, have had things that, full blown, I think on the metric, the 33 point scale, I score like a 19 or 20. I’m sort of not all the way.

Jackson Noble: I’m 31. Right.

Dan Munro:That’s pretty fucking high, too. That points off. That’s a good thing that you chose writing over serial killing? Because you’d probably been…

Jackson Noble: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Dan Munro: But I like this, because what, as I know, as you said, this is all everything you’re doing is self serving, but you are also showing others who feel the same as you out there. They’re like, there’s a pro social way. And it’s actually a better off thing that this is one of the more suspected, I think that’s why I found psychopathy so fascinating. Is that with the right guidance they’re actually the heroes not the villains.

Jackson Noble:  Exactly, yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of Ted Talks on that, where it’s like, we just need to make the world around them…make it a level playing field, and then it’ll be fine.

Dan Munro: Yeah.Somebody put it like, they’re the ones who make the stock market crash, but they’ll also the ones who will bring it back again. So yeah, so the power either way. And as you say, the nurturer element, the ones who end up gangsters and serial killers, I never found one that didn’t have abuse, serious abuse in childhood and stuff.

Jackson Noble:  Yeah, I had a little bit but it was just…not like sexual abuse. It was just my mom getting drunk and hitting us around. But again, I don’t even breeze past because it’s just I don’t even really care about it. It’s not that big of a deal.

Dan Munro: Well, that’s what I’m thinking. You, the fact that at that critical point, you decided like “Fuck prison, well, I’m gonna go this other path.” Had you been worse in childhood, you might have chosen differently at that point, right?

Jackson Noble: Yeah, no, I believe that for sure. Yeah, probably. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Munro: A lot of the guys I work with whatever they were sex traffickers, drug dealers, gangsters. They were on the drugs since they were seven years old, abused, the gangs are where they live. The nurturer was very strong in a certain direction and very antisocial direction.       they didn’t have much of a chance of choosing the smarter way.

There was a really fascinating case, I’ll just finish with this. There’s these two brothers. I won’t name them because they’re very high profile in New Zealand. But one was a really famous politician and one was a pretty much New Zealand only recognized serial killer. And I managed I managed the killer guy and I had to deal with his brother because they were involved. And they’re both clearly psychopaths. Dealing with the brother was like “Oh my God, you’re even worse than the killer!” The charming bullshit artist. And there was something different. I think they’d been split when they were younger and one had gone with an abusive alcoholic family and the other guy was middle class. Clearly ruthless and deceptive and so on, but one had gone on to kill multiple people and the other just gone on to be a really scammy politician.

Jackson Noble: Wow.

Dan Munro: That’s amazing to watch that case study play out like that. I was like, these guys were given different nurtures.

Jackson Noble: And yeah, that’s what I think it was, too. That’s crazy, because I never heard that but that makes so much sense because that’s how it was with my mom. I was saying, by night, it was abusive, and just toxic chasing around the knives, all the all types of shit. And then by day, she was just super supportive and was like, “You’re my firstborn son, you can do” She made me very confident. She was like you got blue eyes facing the sun when you talk to a girl you’re beautiful, Do this, do this, oh, you could do this, or you could do anything. And so I had that I had both in the same house. It was really weird. I think that’s a huge part of it, there was abuse, but it was almost like there was more support in just blind confidence. It’s interesting. It’s    what you’re talking about, but if it was one person in one house.

Dan Munro: Yeah, that’s really interesting, man, I must have been on a knife’s edge for a while there. Oh, yeah. I’m glad. I’m glad for everybody else. But also I’m happy for you that are working. Because for sure you could contribute to all sorts of great art and everything to the world. Instead of digging holes, you see?

Dan Munro: Exactly yeah, no, exactly.

Dan Munro: Look, man. And yeah, I really appreciate you sharing with us today. And yeah, and just sort of demonstrating the honesty that I’m always advocating and showing what it looks in terms of how somebody naturally confident also ended up falling on honesty has just been the smartest strategy. And this is what I’m always trying to promote to people. I don’t say honesty as a moral thing. I’m not actually that much of a moral person. I’ll say.

Jackson Noble:It’s not again, it’s not the same thing as choosing to do the bad or the wrong thing. It’s just this that works the best. It’s completely self serving. It’s not genuine for anyone else at all. But if it works for everybody, then it works for everybody. Yeah, why not? Awesome, man. Yeah, I said, I appreciate you taking the time. And I may have to get you on the horn again, because this is just very fascinating for me. Yeah, I feel  we could go on and on. I didn’t even know that we talked for two hours.

Dan Munro: And so yeah, I appreciate you taking the time, I’m going to share your links. I’ll get links to everything for you. And make sure people check out your book and cool, dude, keep doing what you’re doing. Not that I need my encouragement, and I’ll see you next time.

Jackson Noble: See you next time.

Dan Munro: Are you a nice guy or people pleaser, who wishes they were more assertive, more honest, and better respected by others. Since 2013, I’ve been helping people discover their integrity and apply it courageously. To build deeper, meaningful connections, get respected by others, and become the confident person you’ve always wanted to be. In being able to speak your mind without worrying what other people will think or worrying that it’s the right thing to say. And being able to assertively stand up for yourself and your loved ones. Imagine never feeling the need to apologize for who you are or what you want. And being able to live carefree. Without shame or the I’m not good enough story in your head. Imagine going to bed knowing that you courageously took every opportunity available to you. And you’ve got no regrets. Because you always know what you should be doing in every situation. I’m so confident in my ability to help people like you unleash your highest level of self worth, that I give people a free coaching session to test what I’m doing.

In this one hour session, we will uncover the biggest barrier to your confidence. Whether it’s an awareness problem, you don’t know what you should be doing differently, or it’s a courage problem, what you should be doing, but you find it too intimidating, I will guide you to make a breakthrough with your behavior to get through that barrier in a powerful way without feeling terrified, and without destroying everything you love. I’ve had some people find this first session so powerful that I never hear from them again, simply because they didn’t need anything more after that. It launched them into the highest level of confidence that they’ve ever experienced. And if that’s the result you get, I’m good with that. One client put it, this session was more valuable to me than three years of therapy combined.

If you’re tired of trying to keep everybody happy, and you’re sick of worrying what other people think of you, and you are concerned that your people pleasing and conflict avoidance is going to damage your relationships, then come and have a talk with me. Worst case scenario, you get to experience what it’s like to talk with someone who actually understands what it’s like to be you. I’ve lived the nice guy experience for decades. I know it inside and out. I know that pain case scenario, and very likely, you will have such a powerful insight into a behavioral change that you can make in the next 24 hours to significantly improve your confidence, relationships and career. I ask that you be honest, open to change and willing to try something new. Why wait another 10 years to discover confidence when you can do it today. Fill out the brief form below to apply for a trial coaching session. You do this quickly because there are limited spots each month and then I’ll get back to you to book in time to talk.

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Dan Munro

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