In this livestream, I dive into the painful topic of the friendzone. As a Nice Guy Syndrome sufferer, I found myself in one friendzone situation after another, never being able to convert these false friendships into romantic relationships. Instead of an active dating life, I lived in the hell that is pretending to be platonic with someone I had a crush on. Over and over again.
Full transcript (unedited)
Go? Well, I can wave at people. Only thanks for joining. And for anybody else. Thank you for coming along as you watch your live and of course we’ll be the recording should be available later, assuming technology doesn’t hate me too much. And we’re going to be talking about the friendzone today, classic issue that pretty much every nice guy has experienced at some point in his life and son continue to do so well into their adult years. And even when they don’t, there’s some key learnings we take away from the classic friendzone experience. That’s what we’ll be talking about today. It was a tell us about the the deeper issues that we have. So we’re doing well there today, specifically, so I had many of them that I’ll be talking about specific one that kind of represents them all pretty well talk about why I happened upon reflection, after all the years, and how I managed to sort of stop doing that. So I’ll be doing some q&a If there’s enough people on here to actually be bothered asking questions. So you can comment with questions, thoughts, anything throughout this, and I’ll address them at the end, I can figure out how to look at them. And that’s what we’ll do today, it won’t be as long as their first live stream I did, which is like an hour. That was just an intro one. This one. Hopefully, from now on the live streams will be pretty concise. And you know, just deal with one key point and try to be helpful. So I had a friend, we’ll call her Mary. And she was somebody that I had been to school with actually primary school and she lived kind of down the road from me in my local area. But you know, she was a year bloemen school we’d never really had much interaction. I can’t remember how we reconnected in my 20s. But it was during my massive drought phase those of you who know me or know my content, well know that after my first girlfriend in high school, I basically had nothing going on with women for like four years, I didn’t have sex for four years, couldn’t get a date couldn’t get a relationship going, despite what I felt was a huge amount of trying, nothing happened. And during that time, a lot of friends owning happened during those four years, that kind of the best I could do was get up to the friend point where the girl and I could never really carry it over the line to anything further. And Mary was a great example of this. So I can’t I can’t remember how we initially connected. But before long, I was in a pattern where are spending a lot of time with her three, four times a week, I was going walking down the road to her house and spending hours there, you know, talking hanging out with her and her family watching videos. I can’t remember everything that we did, we didn’t really go out and we just went to her house a lot. So I was spending hours and hours and hours with a am and having that kind of false intimacy that is classic of the friendzone you in my case, it’s often becoming the kind of like pseudo therapist, so they tell me all your problems, you know, and I solve all my problems for a validator. And in a way it was kind of like very, very amateurish, unhealthy version of coaching. So I was probably working on some skills at least. But that’s about the only positive that came out of this. But I was making you laugh a lot. That was kind of my specialty as a nice guy. making them laugh. It reminds me of a Billy Connolly the comedian. He talked about having this problem that always made Don’t laugh make them laugh. No, yes. So funny. And he’s just like gags get your knickers off. You know, and that’s what I was like, all the time I was I was constantly trying to make them laugh. Obviously being very helpful and being the therapists on this, like, funny therapist type guy. And the whole time, just like God doesn’t even think of a happen. She clearly has positive feelings about me, you know, she’d rather spend time with me than anyone else in the world, from what I can see. Where’s nothing happening? In terms of, you know, sexual progress, that’s probably how I was thinking of it. So this is very common for me. And it was Mary, this went on for about a year, maybe, maybe not that long, but it’s hard to remember. And as inevitably happens, at some point, she starts telling me that she’s having issues with some guy, there’s a guy she likes, and she doesn’t know how to move it forward. Now, I was, I was super excited, because I thought she was talking code about me. You know, though, she was trying to tell me that she likes me. Because it gives this guy you know, and I know him really well. And I spent lots of time with him, and it’s finally fit. She’s finally doing something, whatever it is, that makes the shit happen, which is how it happened with my first girlfriend, she basically made all the moves. And then she really specifically mentioned it’s this other guy and that she’s lost her virginity to him and so on and so forth. And I’m just just arrow right to the chest you know, as it all just comes crashing down the salad always ended for me this idea of like, oh my god, I never had a chance. I was always just like, the gay friend kind of thing. And this this instant, like hate and resentment coming out not so much towards her probably more towards myself or towards the greater universe for being unfair. You know, I wasn’t really either a misogynistic guy though that happens a lot for nice guys. There’s resentment towards women. But for me it was always kind of self centered I was always resented myself for the way life we battle there’s something wrong with me. And and blame woman for hating this thing that’s obviously broken, you know. And so I totally bailed on it. As we called on, it stopped hanging out with a stop responding to probably texts or calls or whatever was sent me back in the day. And, you know, so for her, it would have been bizarre, she had this like best friend who was like the brother she never had hanging out with all the time. And then she mentioned that she’s got a boyfriend now, and he disappears. And this has happened to me a lot in my life, this whole process, that whole arc of a story playing out like that, there’s even another girl on the same road I went to school with, that I lived out this thing with, and then I move like 100 meters down the road and do it again. And I haven’t learned my lesson, you know. So that’s the friendzone experience, a lot of you guys will know what that’s like. Sometimes it’s not as intense as spending hours and hours at their house, but can be someone it basically you have a very positive relationship with them. And they clearly like you a lot. And you just kind of send the guy like I can’t, I can’t take this any further. You know, and believe they don’t know that you want to take it further. And or if they do know, you assume they don’t want you, but you’re still desperately hoping something will happen. And then of course, eventually, there’s some sort of crash. Usually when they get a boyfriend or something, though, some people like to get into friend zones with attached woman. Because of our avoidant attachment styles. We generally like to be around unavailable woman because we’re secretly scared of intimacy, we don’t actually want it to work out. This is the real, dirty dark secret to one itis where we become obsessed with one girl like this. It’s because deep down we know we can’t actually get anywhere with it, which is really what we want. We don’t want to get anywhere with a girl because that terrifies us. You know, guys always tell me that they’re afraid of failure and rejection when it comes to women. But they’re actually far more afraid of success. terrified of it. Like if I was like, Okay, well, here’s an amazing beautiful girl and she wants to be your girlfriend. They would panic because they don’t know how to handle it. But unknowingly they’re the time I’m just this guy’s like God got a woman in my life I’ll do anything I’ll spend I’ll put their investment and I didn’t know what I was doing. So why why did a play out like this? Why did this go clearly likes me? Many many hours together. What I thought were deep and intimate conversations. There was one side and she told me everything. Why Did nothing happen? Well, by the way, for those you watching, feel free to comment your theories as to why this kind of scenario plays out but I’ll share mine, which won’t be all the information then it’s a lot of But
the key practical surface level issue is that I was attracted but scared to say anything. Okay, that would have changed everything, there was the thin point of the bottleneck kind of thing. And that is the difference between friendzone and not friendzone. You can even have healthy relationships with women you’re attracted to, as long as the attractions are on the table. And in the friendzone, the attraction while it might be noticed, in no one about, it’s never addressed directly. And that is how a friendzone situations allowed to occur and continue. It’s never called out, hey, I want to get into your pants or words to that effect. It’s always kind of implied with like flirty behavior, perhaps, but it’s never directly bought out into the open. And so that’s the main reason why this played out as long as it did. But of course, that’s the tip of the iceberg. Why did that not happen? Is the real question. Why did I not say this very obvious thing that was right there from the beginning, I was attracted. Even back in school, I felt attractive. So this was very obvious. So it would have been very easy to say in terms of how to put the words and like us to have a crush on you in school and you’re still hot, it would have been very easy to say something. But I never did, despite all the things I said I never said that. Well, again, if we go down one layer, why don’t I say it? There’s a few answers. One is it’s autopilot. I never said stuff like that. Okay, so my approach would woman was to show up in hope that something happens. I had a very much a follower approach, I would put in the work to like be available, and make the opportunity available. I remember, I’d go into town and dance near beautiful girls, or I’d go to a party and like go to the group that had the most single girls and talk to them. I was always trying to put myself like, right in the situation, make the opportunity available. It’s like guys who these days they’d be flipping through Twitter or Tinder or something, you know, they’re like trying to make themselves available. But I just show up and then go absolutely neutral and show up and go passive. Okay, you make things happen now isn’t the how it works like a show up and the girl decides that? Why aren’t you deciding, you know, the fact that she was a virgin, kind of freaked me out I have, you know, nice ghost endeavors as white knight noble kind of thing. We actually find virgins very attractive, because they’re pure and untainted, and we don’t have to compete with some sexual history, which is the secret reason we like virgins is we’re gonna get retroactive jealousy. But you know, I had already been somebody’s first In fact, my first was their first as well and they ended up being a big deal that broke my heart so I probably had some reluctance to get into that again. We knew a lot of the same people and this is pretty much a deal breaker for bravery when it comes to nice guys as if this good might affect my reputational risk I can do anything you know, I found like when I traveled I was a lot bolder and a lot more risk taking socially but back home especially if I’m talking to a girl who I know knows people that I know the possibility of doing something romantic or sexual with her just dies because I imagine that’ll just grapevine out and everybody will find out everything sighs my deck when I’m like in bed, whatever. Am I okay, I just can’t let that information get out. And of course, this leads to the next problem which is you’ve left it too long. Right so even the most naive and nice guys gets a sense of the window of opportunity closing don’t we? We’ve got to work in where this one guy Oh shit, we’ve been friends for a while now. I think I fucking missed it. And that becomes the reason not to do it anymore. It’s like well now it’d be too weird to bring it up. Now we’re mates. Right and so that usually takes over is the reason not to bring it up so okay, well first we have this the other reasons to miss the initial window of opportunity and then we have the excuse that the window of opportunity has been missed and we use that as a reason not to but still not very deep into the our iceberg our we still might well why is all of this happening? What’s the one of the deep beliefs the fears driving us? Well, they’re not mysteries really. Are they? Fear of rejection? That’s right do now like I mentioned. We’re actually far more afraid of success, so she’d been like you know what? I love you Let’s be together. Oh shit. Now what the fuck do I do? But I would have preferred there probably been a fear of rejection was still there. And especially the action moments, the rejection, the being here. And here again, yeah, I’m not into you. I won’t tell the story on this livestream because I saved for another one. But I got really badly humiliated in high school, more than ones trying to ask a girl out or trying to make a move. And so for me getting rejected was associated with huge public humiliation. And no human being on the earth wants that. So I couldn’t make a move, because as far as I was concerned, I’ll have a high likelihood of getting rejected because I had low self worth, I figured he would want us you know, and it would be some sort of public, it wouldn’t be done kindly and compassionately there’s always seem to be very brutal, and ruthless the way it was done. There’s also the fear of causing her pain. Nice guys bear the responsibility of everyone else’s suffering on their shoulders. And the idea that she might be embarrassed or awkward by me doing something, she might feel pressured, especially pressured, I always was afraid of crossing the line. And that a girl wouldn’t like have the bravery to tell me to stop. And then later on, she would feel really bad or abuse. So I was always terrified of being a rapist by mistake sort of thing. So I didn’t want to cause her any pain by putting her in the uncomfortable situation, me making a move, have been cornered and so on. Later on the fear of causing disappointment, this was actually a thing I didn’t realize I had until quite late into my 20s. And I was already working on my shit, and I was doing pretty well. And then I disappointed somebody, and they use that word like I’m really disappointed in you. And I just like full relapse. So it’s crashed. And I was so ashamed, even though it was actually quite unreasonable for the person to be disappointed, unreasonable expectations of me. But, yes, so dialing back the clock, I now realize that a huge fear of disappointing people that came from having a strict upbringing were disappointing. My parents always came with heaps of shame and pain, emotionally. And so the idea that, you know, she’d think, yeah, I finally got this friend, and then I did disappointed now, I’m not actually your friend, I’m just trying to fuck you. That kind of thing. I didn’t want to, I don’t want it to go through that. Of course, as I already mentioned, I had history of women, and a history of a woman that I deemed to be unsuccessful. Now guys, this one nice guys do is we imagine that a girl will reject us. And so we don’t make a move. And then our brain racks that up as a rejection like she didn’t like me. And we can do this multiple times per day. I can’t say anything to her because she wouldn’t like me and she wouldn’t like me. And so we get into our 20s or 30s or whatever. And we think god I’ve been rejected so many times. But whenever I’m coaching a guy and I’m like, Well how many times have you directly expressed attraction to a girl like gone and put it all out on the line just said I’m really into let’s make something happen you know? The answer is usually less than five times ever usually zero. That’s most of those guys have never been direct about attraction ever have been sometimes indirect but never direct never like there’s no doubt about what I’m saying right now. And yet they feel that they’ve been rejected 1000s of times where their rejection is a rejection only counts if you’ve been direct the only way you can be sure that they’re not interested in you is if you put your interest out there directly anything else that might be a misunderstanding or misinterpretation? So most guys often tell me that they’ve been rejected here. So what they’re really saying is they’ve rejected themselves heaps and tract that is recorded that as rejections from others. So I have this history in my head now, when I’m have the skill of like, no girls really into me, like my success rate is like 1%. And the skills like high quality, beautiful girl, she’s not going to be in that 1% which is just a completely inaccurate view of my history and pointless. What does it matter? Right? A confident person want to care about a track record like that. But I’m not a confident person, at least not this time.
Plus, we have even deeper issues we go another layer deeper. We’ve got my upbringing, and the shame I had around sexuality. I remember I made a sexual joke when I was a kid. I was like seven years old or something I mean, a sexual joke kind of humor you have between duty young boys and somebody took a really badly a toll on me. This happened actually a couple of times. As I just didn’t get the joke right or I wasn’t I had no ill intentions but it was definitely perceived as me being a bad person and I just got humiliated by my parents and the teachers for doing this and that combined with the kind of bad Background feminism background and so on happening at the time, I just had this overall impression like a gaming sexual as a horrible thing, it causes so much pain, it causes me pain to be it, you know, I get a lot of punishment, if I even dare show my interest in anything, you know, maybe getting caught looking at porn by my dad, you know, and just how much of a big deal he made about they’re like, I’d really like broken the law or something. So I have this, this is a deep background where sexuality itself is shameful. So if we come up to the surface, like I’m going to tell a girl I like I’ve really got no chance of doing that. My belief system is just not going to let that happen at this point. Then finally, all the previous woman in my life that I had had anything with that done all the leading. And so I’m left with this impression, like it’s better for me to be sexual. Every time I try, it causes pain both to me and others. And the only times anything’s ever happened, woman is when I just stay passive, and they do all the work. And that’s like, all my history, there’s no exceptions, their role. So I assume that’s how it works. Right? I don’t really sit down write this out on paper, here are the laws of the universe. I just have a sense, you know, just show up. Wait, that’s how it works. And so this is how I kept repeating the friendzone pattern. So like I said, feel free to comment and leave your thoughts, if any of this relates to you. But this is in general with my work coaching nice guys. You know, this is this is the story. You know, it’s different years, a different time, slightly different nuances, but the iceberg or shit underneath it, the shame about sexuality, the certainty that’s going to cause harm, the belief that the woman need to lead or otherwise it sounds safe. So that’s what the friendzone is all about. And be understanding the friendzone to kind of ironic term, this isn’t a friendship, right? This isn’t some healthy connection. It’s the closest you’ll get to intimacy is a safe version of instant intimacy for the avoidant type nice guy, but it’s so false because of their huge glaring piece of information that’s not been disclosed, the true feelings you have for someone aren’t available. How can you say it’s a real friendship if they don’t know how you truly feel about them, and you don’t know how they truly feel about you. I mean, what kind of connection there’s not a connection at all. That’s how you feel about a stranger, you have no idea how they feel about you, they have no idea how you feel about them. So it doesn’t matter how many hours you spend with someone if this information isn’t clear, you’re not sure how someone feels about you, you’re not really connected to them. I’ve had this with like non root, non sexual friendships as well like friendships with guys and stuff where, you know, I’ll be at a party or you know, a great example as they’ll organize something without me now, but I don’t even have friends. It’s people that I party with twice a week. I call them my friends, hang out with them, but they forget to invite me to like a New Year’s away. Do I even know how they feel about me? And the answer would be no. Right. And that’s, that’s what it means you don’t really have a friend if you have no idea how they feel about you. And vice versa. And this is the classic of the friendzone the main feeling you have for them as well. So of course how to break out from this. At a high level. I mean, first you have to let go of any friends owns the urine. In any so called friendships you ever girls that have attraction that has not been disclosed, it’s over Ori walk away. I had to learn how to interact with women differently. I had to relearn it from beginning like I’ve never done it before, which essentially, I hadn’t any authentic way. And I learned how to be honest about intentions and feelings. I had to learn like how to enter into a into a connection with somebody with nothing left unsaid, I think important, hidden under the surface, not just attraction, but anything else. That’s a big deal. That might be a deal breaker. I had to learn how to lead and initiate and to face my fear of rejection, to go blast my fear of rejection and get to the point where like, if there’s going to be a rejection, we saw this make sure it happens in the first 30 seconds of meeting somebody. Let’s make sure there’s no investment. There’s no sunk cost here. If they don’t like me, for me, the way I feel about them and everything. They don’t have to reciprocate the field they said to know about and be okay with it at least. But also to be honest with myself, like if I don’t want just a friendship with this person, then I’ve got to go for what I really want or into completely. And so I had to work on all that. That’s essentially it fear of rejection blasting through that being honest about my feelings. That is how you make sure that the friendzone never happens to you again. friendzone Chaotix If you’re honest about attraction, and your feelings, and you make something, get to the point of rejection or acceptance, you know, you go all in you know, now married, I don’t have to do this shit anymore. Nice. You know, and this is a girl who within my first real interaction, I told her that she was my favorite girl of the whole place was a dancer mean. And I invited her to stay at my house with him, the undertones of what that made, you know. So I went from someone who never said this stuff to saying it within the first sentence of meeting someone. And I absolutely believe that had I not done that, with this particular girl, nothing would have happened. I had to be bold, we lived in different cities. So for her to actually like, want to pursue something with me, she had to be 100% sure that it was worth pursuing that she had a shot, like, she’s not going to come up and stay in a different city on the hope that I like. Right? I’d be like, No, I definitely like you, you’ll end. Right no rejection is gonna happen here. If you come and stay with me. I’ve only got one beer, if you know what I mean. So made it really easy for it. So that’s the friendzone story. Thank you guys for tuning in. And don’t think only questions this time. But I’m sure if you have any, you can send them through lady can always comment below on the recording later on, if you have any questions for me. And of course, if any of you want support and becoming more effective with woman, and getting to that point where you feel us around rejection, or at least you enjoy the feeling of fear and rejection, and you feel comfortable putting your true intentions out there and you get better at choosing the woman to do this with as well. You’re not secretly subconsciously choosing unavailable words so that you can avoid intimacy you actually know how to find a woman and be attracted to a woman who’s the right for you. Get in touch email@example.com Or just message me or comment below. I’m interested in I’ll get in touch and we can talk a bit more about some of my upcoming one to one and group coaching then we’ll be available for you. So that’s us. Thank you so much for joining and I will see you all next time. Cheers